350 Engine advice--GOOD UPDATE!

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n2ostroker

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Re: 350 Engine advice

Re: 350 Engine advice

Ayuh,....

You guys are kinda beating a Dead horse,...

Even the center-riser manifolds+ Thru-hulls are a Major restriction.....
Mainly because of the open plenum of the manifods.....

This is very true. I wish the boat was worth it and I had the money for some real headers. In the manifolds and risers there is no exhaust scavening happening. Especially if the through the hulls are in the water at all.
Anybody play with a wideband o2 or egt gauge on these for tuning? Or does the water play heck with the readings?

I may be totally wrong thinking the heads are restricting anything. I'll see more this weekend after removing the foil and adjusting the throttle linkage and carb. Also having some water thats doesn't beat me to death to test cruise and top end. Regardless the heads are being replaced this winter for a better design and better suited to the engine size. So the 305 heads performance is not of utmost importance. Same with the cam since I am unsure of what it is. I'll get it running good for now. I'll pop in some numbers on this thread as to results for this weekend for those interested.
If next spring I have some new found power and can max rpms fairly easy, then I can look forward to repropping. Who knows..
I mentioned lobe seperation just for the fact it might be a truck cam. I'm not having any reversion problems so it must not be too bad and probably around 112. I didn't assume that 305 had maxed the heads. More that with the current cam and head combination on a bigger higher compression motor I think it may be near that point and it may be holding back a few rpm. The 16% was more of an example of a direct change over if all parts were at max effeciency or power. Larger runner and same cam will have a different rpm range as well and could help and/or hurt power delivery.
As far as octane is concerned, I am fully aware I may not need as much as I have and too much can actually hurt power. This was just a precautionary action since I wasn't sure how the high compression would react in a constantly loaded environment and reading marine ping sounds different than in a car I wanted to be sure in case I didn't hear or recognize it. In a car I wouldn't have hesitated to drop in 93 and tune the timing if needed. I'm going to back off and just put 93 in this weekend to see how it acts as the booster mixed gas dilutes and runs through.

So to be more user/fuel friendly with a decent power boost I think the Vortecs are going to be the ticket from the great opinions about them. Probably go to the Comp 256 cam too. It's not too expensive and its been designed for a marine application.
It's not that I need a ton of power or speed. Just maybe maximize the potential of what I have within reason. I like playing with motors. cars, bikes, boats etc. That and learning from the guys who've been around a block that I haven't. Tuning a combo or building something and seeing the result of my work is what makes it fun. If it wasn't and I wanted something to hop in and go and not touch I'd go finance something and drop in the water.
 

Uraijit

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Re: 350 Engine advice

Re: 350 Engine advice

It's not that I need a ton of power or speed. Just maybe maximize the potential of what I have within reason.

That, my friend, is the name of the game. And hopefully we have some fun while we're doing it. Sounds like you've got a pretty good idea of how you're going to go about that. Good luck with it.


Oh, and welcome to the forum!
 

n2ostroker

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Re: 350 Engine advice

Re: 350 Engine advice

Just a few points to ponder, the 305 is actually 3.48 bore, and 3.48 stroke
Not to poke cause I was wrong to. It's a 3.73" bore

From wikipedia:
The 305 variant of the small-block Chevrolet had a displacement of 305 cubic inches (5.0 L) with a 3.736-inch (95 mm) bore and 3.48-inch (88.4 mm) stroke. The 262 was considered underpowered for use in vehicles with a wheelbase greater than 110 inches, so GM engineers decided to increase the bore diameter from 3.671 to 3.736 inches (93.2?94.9 mm) and increase the stroke from 3.10 to 3.48 inches (78.7?88.4 mm) (from the 350). Some performance enthusiasts have noted a marked resistance to performance upgrades on the 305 because of its small bore, poor selection of aftermarket cylinder heads, and the relatively high availability of 350 CID engines.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevrolet_Small-Block_engine
 

n2ostroker

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Re: 350 Engine advice

Re: 350 Engine advice

by the way the max lift on the Vortec heads is about .480" from what I hear, more then that you need machine work, OR, they make beehive springs, & thinner aftermarket retainers, to give you much more lift, but it just costs more $
I noticed someone mentioned that so the 256 should be fine since max lift is .462". Are the stock springs sufficient? Are the push rods the same length or the deck of the head thicker requiring longer push rods?

Also, I've been running 15-40 diesel oil cause it retains most of the antiwear additives they dropped out of motor oil that help on flat tappet cams. Do marine oils still have these?
This is just one of the things I hadn't searched the forum for yet.
 

MBAKER

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Re: 350 Engine advice

Re: 350 Engine advice

I would still check anything over .450 valve lift on them just to be sure. You need to have a little clearance there too, you dont want to run .480 lift and be running right on the seal all the time. A few years back i put together a vortec headed motor, and the cam was right at .480 lift and I had to have it machined because it was too tight.
 

Bondo

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Re: 350 Engine advice

Re: 350 Engine advice

Ayuh,....

And it'll depend on the thickness of the Headgaskets chosen......;)

Always Measure........ Period.....
 

MikDee

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Re: 350 Engine advice

Re: 350 Engine advice

Not to poke cause I was wrong to. It's a 3.73" bore

From wikipedia:
The 305 variant of the small-block Chevrolet had a displacement of 305 cubic inches (5.0 L) with a 3.736-inch (95 mm) bore and 3.48-inch (88.4 mm) stroke. The 262 was considered underpowered for use in vehicles with a wheelbase greater than 110 inches, so GM engineers decided to increase the bore diameter from 3.671 to 3.736 inches (93.2?94.9 mm) and increase the stroke from 3.10 to 3.48 inches (78.7?88.4 mm) (from the 350). Some performance enthusiasts have noted a marked resistance to performance upgrades on the 305 because of its small bore, poor selection of aftermarket cylinder heads, and the relatively high availability of 350 CID engines.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevrolet_Small-Block_engine

I don't care what's the source, personally I think they're all wrong! :rolleyes:
it could be 3.5" bore though? Take out your calculator, but just to round it off: 3.5" (bore dia.) X 3.1417 (Pie) = 10.99 (circumfrence) X 3.48 (stroke) = 38.24 X 8 (cyl)= 305.92 cu in

A 3.736 bore X a 3.48 stroke, X 8 cyl. = a 326cu in motor :rolleyes:
 

Bondo

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Re: 350 Engine advice

Re: 350 Engine advice

Ayuh,....

My handy pocket "Chevy Small Block" release 2, 1955 to 1994, factory part,+ casting number guide says,...

305cid, 1976-1994, 3.736 bore, 3.48 stroke, 2.45 mains, 2.10 rods, 2 bolt blocks....

Still not worth the effort with 350s laying around for next to Nothing.....:rolleyes:
 

MikDee

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Re: 350 Engine advice

Re: 350 Engine advice

Ayuh,....

My handy pocket "Chevy Small Block" release 2, 1955 to 1994, factory part,+ casting number guide says,...

305cid, 1976-1994, 3.736 bore, 3.48 stroke, 2.45 mains, 2.10 rods, 2 bolt blocks....

Still not worth the effort with 350s laying around for next to Nothing.....:rolleyes:

I don't care what's the source, personally I think they're all wrong! :rolleyes:
it could be 3.5" bore though? Take out your calculator, but just to round it off: 3.5" (bore dia.) X 3.1417 (Pie) = 10.99 (circumfrence) X 3.48 (stroke) = 38.24 X 8 (cyl)= 305.92 cu in

A 3.736 bore X a 3.48 stroke, X 8 cyl. = a 326cu in motor :rolleyes:

Somebody, Check the math, and tell me if I'm wrong,,, Don't just throw blanket statements at me! I think there's a lot of misinformation about the bore of the 305 going around.
 

John_S

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Re: 350 Engine advice

Re: 350 Engine advice

Hmmm,.... 305 heads vs std 350 heads, not reducing the power on a 350 in a marine application, no, I can't swallow that. It is always the total system output. Sure, you can get more out of it with a cam upgrade, and other upgrades, but that doesn't mean the 305 heads are not impacting him. Just swap in std 64cc crate engine 350 heads and I bet he picks up hp. Those heads have a similiar chamber design and closer to same compression ratio. Add 202/160 valves to that head and you will still gain some hp. Not that much, maybe only 10-15hp, but it is still gaining, which says you can't be maxed out.

Bondo, the clearance problem is the valve seal against the retainer. With 0 lash hyd cams, no amount of head gasket thickness can change that. I assume you were thinking valve to piston clearance. ;)
 

John_S

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Re: 350 Engine advice

Re: 350 Engine advice

Service manual says a 305 has a 3.73" bore.

...you want area (pi * r^2), not circum
 

n2ostroker

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Re: 350 Engine advice

Re: 350 Engine advice

Somebody, Check the math, and tell me if I'm wrong,,, Don't just throw blanket statements at me! I think there's a lot of misinformation about the bore of the 305 going around.


I don't need math. I'll just measure the block. I know it's not calipers but I think you can see the 1/4" difference. And heres a displacement calculator too.
http://bgsoflex.com/cgi-bin/displacement?ncyl=8&diam=3.736&osize=0.0&stroke=3.48&mode=Inches
http://bgsoflex.com/displacement.html
engine016-1.jpg

engine015-1.jpg


I had too......;)
 

MikDee

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Re: 350 Engine advice

Re: 350 Engine advice

Just got in for the night, Thanks John, & stroker for the right formula, and setting me straight, I was thinking Pie X Diam. was Area, the same as Pie X R squared, Not! I guess it was a senior moment :redface: That's the info I needed, It all makes more sense now ;)
 

Bondo

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Re: 350 Engine advice

Re: 350 Engine advice

Bondo, the clearance problem is the valve seal against the retainer. With 0 lash hyd cams, no amount of head gasket thickness can change that. I assume you were thinking valve to piston clearance.

Ayuh,... I understand.....

I'm merely pointing out that a Fat headgasket, in effect shortens the pushrod length,+ a Thin headgasket in effect lengthens the pushrod length...

As you noted,.... It's All about the Combination of parts used....

That's why I said that Measuring is Always the Best Idea.....
Because changing Any 1 of the parts, Changes the relationship of All the other parts....
 

John_S

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Re: 350 Engine advice

Re: 350 Engine advice

That's why I said that Measuring is Always the Best Idea.....
Because changing Any 1 of the parts, Changes the relationship of All the other parts....

Agree 100%, especially when talking about something close to the limits. Stack-up of tolerances or small mfg error can easily reach up and bite you.


I'm merely pointing out that a Fat headgasket, in effect shortens the pushrod length,+ a Thin headgasket in effect lengthens the pushrod length...

I am trying to keep the geometry straight in my head (dangerous), but I think it only changes (slightly) how far down you adjust the rocker arm. ie the pivot point is slightly lower on the thicker head gasket.
 

MikDee

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Re: 350 Engine advice

Re: 350 Engine advice

I noticed someone mentioned that so the 256 should be fine since max lift is .462". Are the stock springs sufficient? Are the push rods the same length or the deck of the head thicker requiring longer push rods?

Also, I've been running 15-40 diesel oil cause it retains most of the antiwear additives they dropped out of motor oil that help on flat tappet cams. Do marine oils still have these?
This is just one of the things I hadn't searched the forum for yet.

If you have adjustable lifters, (chevys trademark for years) pushrod length should not be a problem, and the stock Hi-Perf L-82 cam has .450 int, & .460 exhaust and works with the stock springs.

http://www.gmpartsdirect.com/performance_parts/store/catalog/Product.jhtmlPRODID=2595&CATID=826.html

But, From what I read, the Vortec heads 96' & up, have less valve lift clearance, (theoretically .480 max) and have net lash lifters, meaning they're not adjustable, apparently they reach a stop, then you torque them down to 30ft lbs, pushrod lengths do matter here. :rolleyes: and, or, you might have to change to adjustable rockers? :confused:
 

John_S

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Re: 350 Engine advice

Re: 350 Engine advice

The V6 vortecs have a torque setting for the rocker arm adj, while the SB vortecs has the standard zero lash + 1 turn. Not sure why the difference???
 

MikDee

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Re: 350 Engine advice

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The V6 vortecs have a torque setting for the rocker arm adj, while the SB vortecs has the standard zero lash + 1 turn. Not sure why the difference???

Really? Then they're not net lash lifters, they're still adjustable, the rocker arms don't reach a stop!? If so, that's odd? but great!
What's your source of info? If you don't mind my asking? Then theoretically pushrod length shouldn't matter.
 

John_S

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Re: 350 Engine advice

Re: 350 Engine advice

Really? Then they're not net lash lifters, they're still adjustable, the rocker arms don't reach a stop!? If so, that's odd? but great!
What's your source of info? If you don't mind my asking? Then theoretically pushrod length shouldn't matter.

V6 Vortec: Mercruiser Service Manual #25

V8 Vortec: Mercruiser Service Manual #24
 

wca_tim

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Re: 350 Engine advice

Re: 350 Engine advice

I have to go with what john s, mbaker and some of the others are saying about the heads (and you), pretty much anything from a stock 350 head with 1.94 / 1.5 valves to vortecs or better is going to make a difference. The 256 is a mild cam. As you noted when more cubes, smoother idle with the same cam so it's not a representative comparison. I'm currently running a comp 270h in my 383 and it will idle at 500 rpms. (it's mild enough that I'm going to go with more cam this winter as well as even better heads).

Depending on how right you're buying a set of Vortecs, I agree that you might consider a set of aftermarkets. Buying a pair set up winds up being not a lot more money by the time you pay to have the vortecs built right and then you don't have to worry about valve lift, etc... world product, Dart both have ewll designed set-ups and I know wp you can order with the right valves, springs and guides for not a lot more than a set of vortecs... with 2.02 / 1.6 valves, will handle lifts closer to 0.600 without any probs (not that it is needed in this case)...

Bond O, I thought that as you went to lower intake and exhaust lobe lifts and and especially durations you could get away with lower lobe separation angles (ie as low as 109), but that as you go higher in lift and duration you need wider lobe separation angles to minimize overlap which is the source of rough idle (hard on outdrive) and even more important for reversion. Increasing lobe separation angle kills torque and horsepower, but makes things safer from a reversion standpoint. Did I miss something?
 
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