2003 Yamaha HDPI No Start/Sputter Has Spark

drewm3i

Petty Officer 1st Class
Joined
Dec 31, 1969
Messages
288
Hey guys, really stumped on this one. Originally posted on THT but haven't gotten much help:

Update 1:
The motor in question died while idling out to go fishing last November. Since, it has failed to sputter or restart at all. We have bypassed the kill switch with no change except an audible alarm, charged his batteries which are older and were depleted a bit (around 11.9-12 volts), and tested for spark on all cylinders (there was spark on every cylinder).

A few years back, we replaced both of his lift pumps that fill the VST tank and cleaned the VST tank and replaced the filter in there. The primer bulb stayed firm during all of this so we are guessing it isn't the lift pumps but we will test.

Update 2:
We spark tested it...it has spark on every cylinder, albeit it seems weak.

Update 3:
Hey guys, just an update: the owner bought a new boat and I bought this one for a pittance. It still won't start. Here is why has been tried:

1. VST tank is filled at least half-way with fuel (hard to tell as some spills when opening the tank). The lift pumps seem to be working as the primer bulb is holding a prime. When I tested the fuel line from the lift pumps into the VST for fuel while cranking, a small amount of fuel was being pumped from the lift pumps.

2. The VST fuel pump has power and cycles on. No fuel pressure was detected at the shraeder valve. I replaced the pump with a new one from Quantum Fuel Systems, a company I've had good experiences with. I now have erratic/intermittent fuel pressure up to 45-50 psi when turning the key and the new pump runs/whines. It seems fuel pressure drops to zero when cranking and the test light goes weak.

3. I am unsure how to test the main relays or ECU, besides attempting to apply 12 volts of power to the large terminals on the former. At $30 a pop, I may just replace the relays which from the diagram, control fuel pump operations and the ECU/injectors. I am unsure how to test the high pressure fuel pump but believe it may be the culprit as it has not, to my knowledge, been addressed. I do not have access to YDS software.

Update 4:
Tried cranking with a test light wired to the fuel pump terminal (VST)...bright light with key on that goes dim while cranking but stays lit. Brand new 1000 MCA battery. Brand new VST fuel pump whines a bit with the key in the on position so I know it's running. VST tank is about 2/3 full of fuel.
 

dingbat

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Nov 20, 2001
Messages
16,083
You’re all over the place.

“Guessing” isn’t the answer. Either is throwing parts at it unless you plan on swapping power heads

You need a good VM and a factory service manual to troubleshoot properly
 

99yam40

Fleet Admiral
Joined
Sep 7, 2008
Messages
9,086
YDS would make it a lot easier to troubleshoot, and you can see what the rail pressure is doing
HPDI rail pressure should be over 700, Your service manual will help a lot knowing the specs
 

drewm3i

Petty Officer 1st Class
Joined
Dec 31, 1969
Messages
288
You’re all over the place.

“Guessing” isn’t the answer. Either is throwing parts at it unless you plan on swapping power heads

You need a good VM and a factory service manual to troubleshoot properly
Gee, thanks for the useless advice. You do realize many things have been tested in sequence, right?

-There is compression
-There is spark
-The lift pumps work
-The VST fuel pump is new and runs when the key is "on," but loses voltage while cranking
-The fuses have all been checked and are fine

Things that have not been tested:
-relays
-ecu
-rail pressure
-injectors
 

drewm3i

Petty Officer 1st Class
Joined
Dec 31, 1969
Messages
288
YDS would make it a lot easier to troubleshoot, and you can see what the rail pressure is doing
HPDI rail pressure should be over 700, Your service manual will help a lot knowing the specs
I agree. I do not have YDS though or a computer with a disk drive to run it. I'm pretty sure it's the ECU. I have learned from an engineer friend, that the ECU controls the VST fuel pump negative side so a simple test while cranking when I am back at the boat should confirm if the pump is losing voltage at the ground side while cranking will demonstrate the issue and we will go from there.
 

dingbat

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Nov 20, 2001
Messages
16,083
Gee, thanks for the useless advice. You do realize many things have been tested in sequence, right?

-There is compression
-There is spark
-The lift pumps work
-The VST fuel pump is new and runs when the key is "on," but loses voltage while cranking
-The fuses have all been checked and are fine

Things that have not been tested:
-relays
-ecu
-rail pressure
-injectors
Electronic controlled engine.

Relays, ECU, feedback sensors, rail pressure, and injectors are all likely suspects, none of which you have tested.
 

drewm3i

Petty Officer 1st Class
Joined
Dec 31, 1969
Messages
288
Electronic controlled engine.

Relays, ECU, feedback sensors, rail pressure, and injectors are all likely suspects, none of which you have tested.
You act like those things can be easily tested without YDS. Everything that could have been tested with standard equipment has been tested, including pump pressure at the VST tank which is erratic and momentarily goes to 50 with the key "on" before cranking when it goes to zero.

If you want to help, tell me what those sensors do in terms of the mechanism by which they work. How do they fail? Increased resistance? Short circuit? When they "fail," what actually happens?

Usually sensors like the ones above will make an engine hard to start or run rough, but will not keep if from running unless they are tied in to the ignition and kill spark when cranking...but I have spark. What I am seeing, is the VST pump losing power/voltage while cranking which based on the diagrams and schematics I have seen, indicates ECU, which--as I am sure you know--is impossible to test/bypass without installing a new, working one.

Also, since the engine has not stuttered so much as once since stalling almost a year ago, it is almost certainly not injector or high pressure pump related (which is mechanically driven via belt if I am understanding this motor correctly). Relays? Perhaps, but I will have to apply 12 volts to test. At $30 a pop, I may just replace them or swap them out to test.

Insight as to the inner workings of this motor and its systems is welcome, critical drivel with no substance is not. So either be constructive or leave. I am not a noob: I am a professional mechanic and have owned 11 boats LOL. If you think it's so easy that you could do it in your sleep, come help! I will pay handsomely :cool:
 
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