2001 Johnson 150 Ocean Pro Fuel Starvation

[cyberboater]

Newbie here to these forums, but looks like some good information coming out of them. Ok, I've scoured these forums to lead me in the right direction, but still no luck. By the time you get to end of my description, hopefully you can confirm/suggest the next direction. In any event, hope this helps some other folks out there.

Summary:

I'm trying to diagnose what appears to be a fuel starvation issue. Key word here is diagnose. I do not want to blindly replace parts hoping I finally get it right, expending time and money on things I do not need. I've taken the approach to try and find the obvious/most likely problem, run some tests, and good old process of elimination (Started at the fuel tank and worked my up to the engine). I'm no mechanic, but somewhat inclined "amateur backyard gearhead."

Engine Information: 2001 Johnson 150 Ocean Pro (Model: J150VXSIF)
Hours: 120
Fuel Tank: Remote with 4-wire VRO2 on engine (and I want to keep the VRO system and am trying to avoid a forum debate on whether I should keep it or not).

Symptoms:

Engine stalls after about one or two minutes after starting. This is at idle. If RPM's increase its stalls in a shorter amount of time ( i.e. using more fuel). Note, I'm not reving the engine beyond about 1500 RPM (in neutral--I've been forwarned about excessive RPM's in neutral could damage the engine), although I could (I took it on the water in gear, and ran normal for about 30 seconds, at higher RPM's). I can start the engine (warm or cold) without issue. Runs like a champ as long as the fuel primer bulb is pumped. So, it appears I've become the fuel pump as long as my hand does not get tired.

No alarms.


Items Checked:

-Fuel Tank: Checked vent line and fuel line for blockage, anti-siphon valve at fuel tank, hoses for cracks, all looked good.

-Fuel Primer Bulb: Will pump up and stay hard (engine off). So, seems the bulb is working. Note, the bulb has always deflated a bit during normal operation (before this problem occurred), because I realize fuel is flowing, causing a pressure drop. This is normal operation I expect. It still "feels" normal (even with this problem).

-Hooked up a portable fuel tank to the vapor separator (i.e. where the fuel line enters the engine from the primer bulb). Same symptoms. This eliminated the remote fuel tank, anti-siphon, hoses, and primer bulb from the equation. Has to be at the engine.

-Dismantled vapor separator. Checked float inside, seemed normal (not sticking). Checked hoses from vapor separator to manifolds for obstruction/leaks--ok. Squeezed primer bulb and vapor separator filled with fuel and stayed (engine off).

-Fuel filter checked/cleaned (was not dirty to begin with).

-Checked pulse valve at manifold (brass nut, blue anodized nipple) and cleaned (was not obstructed to begin with). Replaced, cranked motor, got a "pulse". Seemed ok.

-Found a small fuel leak at the VRO fuel inlet port. So, I suspected it was sucking air. I clamped it down, no more leak. With that said, I replaced all tie wrap style and spring style hose clamps with ratchet style. As I did this, I checked each hose for wear and obstruction (fuel, vacuum, oil--basicallly every darn hose linked to the fuel system. All clear (but blew them all out with compressed air anyways). Started engine, same issue.

-Removed the VRO fuel out line (to the manifold), put on a clear hose and cranked the engine. No fuel flow. Bone dry. However, if I squeezed the fuel primer bulb, fuel would flow. So, suspect fuel pump side of the VRO now. Ran the tests found here (http://www.boatpartstore.com/tips.asp), with the equipment I had (no vacuum tester available). My assessment led to believe intermediate casing needed replacing (see the flowchart in the link above), because I did not hear the "click" when performing the 15lb pressure test. Basically, I hooked an air compressor to the pulse line input of the VRO. The pump held air (so it appeared), but upon relieving, I expected to hear the "click", which should have been the air piston inside moving. Nothing.

-Removed and dismantled VRO. Found this great explanation and cross-sectional view of the VRO at http://www.continuouswave.com/whaler/reference/VRO.html . The VRO really is quite simple (but if its the problem, I guess not so simple). Thing looked like new. Examined all the springs, o-rings,diaphragms for cracks/dryness, flapper valve. Examined casing for cracks. Examined inlet nipples o-rings, checked for leaks. All good (visually). Nothing looked worn or damaged (I know this can be deceiving). I could move the air piston back and forth by hand, so mechanically, seemed ok. I dismantled the entire VRO, (air chamber, fuel chamber, oil chamber). Put it all back together, mounted back to engine, primed the oil, mixed up a batch of 50:1 in my portable tank (just in case), primed the fuel, started her up. Died in about 1 minute. Removed VRO, fuel output line dry. So my assessment is the fuel pump side of the VRO is not working. The air piston "probably" is not moving, thus, not creating an pressure/vacuum, and not pumping fuel. But, as I said, this VRO looks undamaged.

Questions:

1. Barring the visual inspection of parts in the VRO, what else can I check in the VRO?

2. Can I get replacement parts for the VRO? I've read the stories about replacing the entire VRO for well over $300+ bucks. The cost is not the major issue if it fixes the problem. I've read the fuel side is replaceable. What is replaceable, what is not?

3. Based on my ranting, does it really seem like its the fuel pump or something else (compression, carbs--but again runs fine when getting fuel)?

To Do List:

-Run a vacuum test to the fuel pump (need to get my hands on a vacuum pump this week) to see if I can get the air piston to move.

-I have a Johnson OEM Service Manual on order, but it could take a couple weeks. Problem is, its getting colder by the minute here in the midwest (Michigan) and want to get this boat ready for winter storage ASAP.

Thanks.

Tim

 

[tashasdaddy]

Re: 2001 Johnson 150 Ocean Pro Fuel Starvation

i went to "http://www.evinrude.com/en-US/Accessories/Literature/?popup=true" look up your motor. sounds to me you have either a float problem, or a fuel pump problem. it's burning the fuel in the bowl, and not replenishing. but with 6 carbs, some should be getting fuel, so i'm strongly leaning toward the fuel pump. not all 6 floats are going to stick.

 

[JMO]

Re: 2001 Johnson 150 Ocean Pro Fuel Starvation

I have had this promblem. it sounds to me like u have a vro promblem.From what u said ABOUT the color of the pulse nippleit seems that the vro has been changed. The factory one is brass in color i dont know if ot brass or not . the vro u have can be rebuilt but only the fuelside(lucky u ). when i had this promblem hers what i did i used a automotive fuel pump electric one and a regulator u can do this how ever u want but make sure the fuel is getting to the motor however u can and use a plastic shut off valve turn the on start motor after a min shut the valve off see if the motor does what u are saying it does before the motor stalls turn on this is a lot of bs but it worked for me i had too buy a new pump u can rebuild urs for about 55.00 bucks my guess is its ur pumpand also did u check ur primer bulb for leaks

 

[cyberboater]

Re: 2001 Johnson 150 Ocean Pro Fuel Starvation

Thanks for the feedback. I did check the fuel primer bulb for leaks. I actually bypassed the entire fuel tank, line, vent, and primer bulb by hooking into a portable fuel tank, so nothing between the engine except a temporary hose and fuel container--same results, die in about 1-2 minutes.. So, this should eliminate air leak issues at least up to the motor.

I ran the a vacuum/pressure test today on a some items:

1. The pulse limiter (brass with blue) coming out of the manifold. FYI, this is the original --I purchased the engine new in 2001--single owner)

2. I eliminated the carburators, because it just runs fine if I keep squeezing the bulb. The motor has 6 carbs, unlikely all are malfunctioning.

3. Ran a compression test on all cylinders (only the bottom #6 I really need for vacuum, which provides the pulse limiter vacuum source). All cylinders were fine.

4. Ran the pressure/vacuum test on the fuel pump again, and did not seem like it was pushing the diaphragm.

Going to get the fuel pump side rebuild kit. Visually, though, as I said, the pump parts "look" fine.

 

[CharlieB]

Re: 2001 Johnson 150 Ocean Pro Fuel Starvation

The VRO pump also receives a vacuum pulse, a 'fuel side' kit may NOT cure your problem as the pressure/vacuum 'motor' is stuck and not functioning.

Re-test, looking at the oil OUT line, is it moving oil? If yes then get the fuel kit, if no get the VRO pump assy. It costs, but you'll know it works.

Be sure to purge the air out of the oil lines.

 

[JMO]

Re: 2001 Johnson 150 Ocean Pro Fuel Starvation

this is a long shot but i think i have my old one it works but the oil side is broken it gets oil but a little to much i ran this pump for 6 months before i knew it was like this if i have i can ship it to u if u will be honest and sent back

 

[cyberboater]

Re: 2001 Johnson 150 Ocean Pro Fuel Starvation

The VRO is moving oil (I always purge the oil line and make sure oil is flowing into the oil chamber--hooked transparent hose into VRO, marked oil level in oil reservoir tank, it is flowing. Fuel and oil are mixing (i.e. when I am the fuel pump squeezing the bulb), the fuel "looks and feels" mixed when coming out of the VRO fuel out port (hopefully it's the right ratio). I can run the engine to warm up/normal temps, no issues. Compression tests are fine (checking for engine damage/wear). Vaccuum from pulse limiter fine. Runs great (when I manually supply the fuel). Bottom line, I believe the motor is getting lubrication.

Again, the issue here is diagnosis. I don't mind plunking down the $$$ for a new VRO2 (ok, I do mind, but will do it if it solves the problem).

 

[Augi Dawg]

Re: 2001 Johnson 150 Ocean Pro Fuel Starvation

I was a member many years ago. I forgot my password, so I have re-registered.
Hello everyone!
I have a 1995 Johnson Ocean Runner 200.
I bought the boat in 2000. I had to put a new VRO in soon after I bought it. Two years later, I had to rebuild the pump. I then plugged the oils side, and have been mixing by hand. Two weeks ago, I had to rebuild the pump again. I am having the exact same symptems. I believe the problem lies in the VRO check valves.
I refuse to buy another Johnson pump.
I have talked to several Johnson dealers. They want nothing to do with helping me puy an electric pump on my boat. I don't blame them, there is too much liability, and also the fact that they represent Bombardie, who will never admit that their plastic pumps have issues.

Two days ago I recieved my Walbro Marine electric pump FRB-13-2, $114.93 plus shipping, from go2marine.com
It is a 7psi, 12 volt pump. I am going to remove the VRO, plug the vacuum port, build a mounting plate that uses the 3 mounting holes on the engine, and 2 holes for the new pump, run 2 wires from the ignition key, and never have to worry about fuel supply again.

I have considered all of the safety issues.
All of the vehicles I have had for the past 20 years, have had electric fuel pumps.

Bottom line:
If your engine dies, either start it immediatly, or turn off the key. Otherwise, it will act no differently than a mechanical/vacuum pump. Am I correct?

I will be giving it a go this weekend.
I will let you know how it worked.