2 trailers questions: tires *yawn* and alignment

MajBach

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I DID do a search on tires in this forum and after reading about 10 of the 300 hits without a direct answer, I will make a new post. <br />I have a Shorelander trailer purchased new hauling a 17' aluminum. First season I owned it I took it over the scales just before lay-up for the winter ( so, very very empty ) and it was 2300 lbs.<br /><br />Anyway, at the end of the first season I noticed the inside of one of the tires wearing a little more than the rest of that tire and far more than the tire on the other side. Five years later, the tread on that one tire is worn to the belt while the outside is fine. The other tires looks almost new. Tires are original and inflation is meticulously checked. The boat pulls perfectly! Doesn't seem to be any play in the tire when jacked up either. What could be causing this?<br /><br />The other questions is: obviously I need to replace at least one tire. Do I have to use a trailer tire? The tire is ST 175/80 R13. Cheapest I can find is $100. The local auto store has 13" passenger tires on sale for $40 - decent ones. Both tires are rated for 1350 lbs. The trailer tire has a max inflation of 50 psi vs. 36 for the car tire. Is it importnat to use a trailer tire?<br />Interestingly, the manual for the trailer says max load is 2090 lbs. This was the trailer the brand new boat was sold to me on from the dealer.<br /><br />Thanks in advance!
 

JB

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Re: 2 trailers questions: tires *yawn* and alignment

Howdy, MajBach.<br /><br />1. The trailer is underrated for the load. If it weighed 2300 empty it probably weighs 2500-2700 ready to launch.<br /><br />2. You have a bent axle, probably because of #1.<br /><br />3. Using an auto tire on any boat trailer, particularly an overloaded trailer with a bent axle is. . . .um. . . er. . .not recommended. See the link Nick posted.<br /><br />You need to upgrade your trailer. I would replace it, but if the frame is strong you might get by by replacing the axle, springs and tires to bring the load rating up to around 3000#.<br /><br />I would also rebuke the jerk who rigged it when you bought it. It is a bit late to ask for compensation, but it might be worth a try.<br /><br />Good luck.
 

MajBach

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Re: 2 trailers questions: tires *yawn* and alignment

Thanks, Nick. I was hoping to hear something like that. Anyone second it?<br />The 'stiffer sidewall' theory does worry me a bit. Espwcially when i notice how much the sidewalls flex on the trailer on every bounce. Why do trailer tires allow for more pressure than car tires?
 

Silvertip

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Re: 2 trailers questions: tires *yawn* and alignment

That's what makes them trailer tires. The flexing on a passenger car tire used on a trailer creates heat. Heat destroys tires. I agree that you have either a bent spindle or a bent axle. Stand about 20 feet in back of your trailer, squat down and look carefully at both wheels. Bet you see the worn tire side tilted slightly inward at the top. If not, it may be towed out. To understand what that is, look at your feet. Chances are your feet don't point perfectly parallel. They are either towed out (pointing away from each other) or towed in (pointing toward each other).
 

imported_Curmudgeon

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Re: 2 trailers questions: tires *yawn* and alignment

Anyone second it?<br /><br />I'd say Nick has more stones (and luck) than sense to set off for AK with a dual axle shod with the cheapest tires Wally World has.<br /><br />Uneven wear usually has little to do with the tire; trailer tires take the same abuse as the tow vehicle, but usually with much less suspension to help out; your axle and tires are underrated for your boat/load, which puts even more stress on the tires and axle. I'd have a serious discussion with the dealer and mention things like consumer complaints to BBB, boat and trailer manufactures, etc. Regardless of that outcome, you're trailer is dangerous!
 

MajBach

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Re: 2 trailers questions: tires *yawn* and alignment

I've been doing a lot of reading since the last post and getting much conflicting info but I'd thought I'd share some of it here and see what you think. <br /><br />Seems like there is consensus that light truck and trailer tires do have stiffer sidewalls. But what is not clear is if this stiffer sidewall is what allows for higher inflation pressure which in turn allow for greater loads. If the tire is rated for the load it is carrying, some state it doesn't matter if it is ST, LT or P-Metric. <br /><br />There are many posts of people stating they have spoken with 'experts' or engineers that state using a PX tire on a trailer is fine ( as long as it is load rated ), but NEVER an ST tire on a car. There are just as many that state that they have been using passenger tires on their trailers since forever without a problem but have seen plenty of blowouts, defective tires etc. with ST Tires.<br /><br />Px tires, i.e. radials, are superior in every way to bias ply except for sidewall stiffness such as quietness, comfort, longevity and fuel economy. The stiffness of a trailer tires is req'd because of the added load and stress. But I ask: what added load and stress? Assuming the tires carry the equivalent weight, wouldn't the stresses of acceleration, braking and especially corenering be far more on a car than on a trailer?<br /><br />It seems conclusive as well that max. load has a lot to do with max psi. The sidewall stiffness is just what allows for higher psi. What I dont quite understand is how a passeneger tire of the same dimensions as a trailer tire but only a max psi has the same load rating as a trailer tire with higher psi tolerances.<br />This is a consideration for me for two reasons. I have noticed that my trailer tires seem to look under-inflated, even when filled to the max psi. This is especially true when I see how they absorb a bump. However, even with my over loaded trailer, they still are well within maximum load limits. I have read that going from a ST tire to a passenger tire on a trailer allows the load to sway more easily. This makes sense if the sidewalls are stiffer on an ST tire. On the other hand, my boat does seem to sway easily on its trailer tires when I compare it to my utility trailer that weighs about the same that I have been using used car tires on for the past ten years. <br /><br />None of what I have read has mentioned anything about profiles or series. I know from buying tires for a sports car how important sidewall stiffness is and when I have gone from S or T rated tires to H rates tires, the difference in cornering is unmistakeble. The sales people tell me this is due to stiffer sidewalls. I have also been told that a lower profile will do this - which makes perfect sense when you look at how thin sports car tires are. <br />So, what are the pros and cons for changing the series of a tire on a trailer. How does the mfg. decide? <br /><br />All I know is that ST tires will cost me more than twice as much as a decent car tires and the more I think about it, I cannot see how a car tire that is rated for the same loads can possibly be a disadvantage or liability over ST tires given that a car tires should give the trailer a smoother ride, last longer and save on gas. But I remain open-minded. Is there something I am missing?
 

JB

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Re: 2 trailers questions: tires *yawn* and alignment

Interesting rationalizations, MajBach.<br /><br />Why do you suppose the tire companies, who know a lot of stuff about tires and towing that we mere mortals don't understand, bother to make special tires for trailers?<br /><br />There are hundreds of things about our boats, engine and trailers that we take the manufacturers word for. <br /><br />Why are there so many self appointed experts that tell you to ignore manufacturer specs in favor of "I put my smokes out in a can of petrol and never got blown up yet" mythology?<br /><br />People get away with unnecessary risk every day, but people are also killed by taking unnecessary risk. . . every day.
 

Lou C

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Re: 2 trailers questions: tires *yawn* and alignment

The fact is that trailers put tires under stresses that vehicles do not. Look at how much travel a typical leaf sprung trailer has, maybe 2 inches, 3 at most? Your typical truck suspension has probably twice that. So what absorbs the force on the trailer? The tire does. And most boat trailers are way rear end heavy, you need the stiffness to resist sway, even with correct tongue weight. No passenger vehicle has its weight distrubited like a boat trailer does, and if it did, it'd oversteer like a old swing axle Porsche, VW or Corvair on bald tires! If you compare weight ratings, trailer tires are really not any more expensive than light truck tires of the same size. Good light truck tires of 235-75-15 for my old Jeep run anywhere from 95 to 130 or so, you can get 225-75-15 trailer tires (the largest commonly available size) for less than that.<br /><br />So you see, it is not just the WEIGHT the tire carries, yes an LT truck tire can carry the weight, but the dynamic FORCES applied to the tire all the time that is different, IMHO.
 

Silvertip

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Re: 2 trailers questions: tires *yawn* and alignment

A light truck tire still carries lower inflation pressure than a trailer tire. Tire construction, number of plies, and type of plys that determine a tires load rating and maximum inflation pressure. Have an accident while towing your trailer (whether or not it involves trailer tire failure) and you can bet an attorney and the other party will own your stuff.
 

MajBach

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Re: 2 trailers questions: tires *yawn* and alignment

JB: I appreciate your viewpoints on this topic and, sincerely, I am not trying to start a debate. But when it comes to following the mfg's recommendations, I take just about EVERYTHING with a grain of salt. I have been employed in just about every aspect of the manufacturing of a product from design to marketing to sales to management. The process a product often took to get to the market often left me in disbelief insofar as "what the public doesn't know". Just becasue there exits a dedicated trailer tire specification does not convince me that tires in other categories do not measure up. The fact is, so long as there is a market and no liabilites ( and sometimes even if there is a liability that is offset by profit, i.e. Ford and Firestone), many companies will go ahead and make it - relying soley on consumer ignorance; hi-test gasoline and synthetic oil for example.<br />The fact that trailer tires cost more means squat as well. Whole wheat bread costs less to make but costs more to buy than white bread because fewer people buy it. The list is endless.<br /><br />The so-called experts I referred to are supposedly people from the tire industry. I consider everyone on the Internet to be of equal expertise simply because I cannot verify anything.<br /><br />I am really looking to accomplish one thing: determine if I am not making my trailer unsafe by using non trailer tires. How can I do this when I am not always convinced by even 'professionals' that I meet in person, much less from someone I have never met on-line? Good question. I suppose it comes down to a combination of blind trust combined with the experiences of others' ( as opposed to opinion/knowledge). So far, I have read numerous consumer posts stating that their trailer tires failed on their trailers, but none so far that said their car tires have failed on their trailers.
 

tommays

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Re: 2 trailers questions: tires *yawn* and alignment

what ever car tires max out around 44 psi trailer tires 50 to 65 psi <br /><br /><br />NO car/lite truck tire has the same load rateing in the same size as a trailer tire its just a fact <br /><br /><br />tommays
 

MajBach

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Re: 2 trailers questions: tires *yawn* and alignment

So, tommay: I should be able to put my mountain bike tire on then - it maxes out at 70 psi. AND, my car tire has a HIGHER load rating than my current trailer tires - according to what's stamped on them . They are the same size and the car tires max out at 36 psi. <br /><br />what ever though - those are just facts.
 

MajBach

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Re: 2 trailers questions: tires *yawn* and alignment

So, tommay: I should be able to put my mountain bike tire on then - it maxes out at 70 psi. AND, my car tire has a HIGHER load rating than my current trailer tires - according to what's stamped on them . They are the same size and the car tires max out at 36 psi. <br /><br />what ever though - those are just facts.<br /><br />Intellgent responses backed by some sort of fact or logic greatly appreciated.
 

JustMrWill

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Re: 2 trailers questions: tires *yawn* and alignment

Ok.<br /><br />You asked...people responded...you didn't like their response so now you are attacking with sarcasm? If you have your mind set on one thing..then here, I'll say what you want (even though I would never do it myself - my boat, life and lives of everbody else on the road that I could kill by an equipment failure matters more to me than the $50 difference in tires)<br /><br />Car tires, mountain bike tires, even big wheel tires will do just fine for your towing needs...have fun.<br /><br />-JMW<br /><br />disclaimer: I am not a tire expert...but I did stay at a Holiday Express once!
 

Lou C

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Re: 2 trailers questions: tires *yawn* and alignment

Like I said, your car does not have 2600 pounds or so or more on just 2 tires, with that weight distributed so that about 90% of it is right on the tires, at the extreme rear of the load. Car tires allow sideways movement to built up cornering force. On a trailer you do not want this, that will cause swaying, which can cause you to lose control. Trailer tires are even stiffer than equivalent size LT tires, and in load range D are carry far more weight (LT 235-75-15=1850@50psi, ST 225 75-15=2150@50psi for Load range C, 2540 for load range D@65 psi). Not equal as you can see.
 

imported_Curmudgeon

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Re: 2 trailers questions: tires *yawn* and alignment

I am really looking to accomplish one thing: determine if I am not making my trailer unsafe by using non trailer tires.<br /><br />Your trailer is already unsafe (and illegal in some states) because of the weight sitting on it; A poor choice of tires will just add another dimension!
 

brine

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Re: 2 trailers questions: tires *yawn* and alignment

Forget about your trailer tire replacement problem. Your first task is to replace an under-rated trailer. ( it will come with the correct tires ) :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: <br />Also, watch where you tow in Ontario, the MTO will impound your boat while you shop for that new trailer.
 

borourke

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Re: 2 trailers questions: tires *yawn* and alignment

"So far, I have read numerous consumer posts stating that their trailer tires failed on their trailers, but none so far that said their car tires have failed on their trailers"<br /><br />What does that tell you??? My guess is no one willing to do it?
 

MajBach

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Re: 2 trailers questions: tires *yawn* and alignment

Well thanks so far folks. This thread has evolved into a mild debate but I have always felt that a good debate is a source of good information. <br /><br />JustMrWill: I didn't say I dind't like the answers, I merely asked for qualification. I also dont see my use of sarcasm anywhere.<br /><br />Lou: I like your responses and logic - best I've heard so far and probably the main reason why I haven't bought the car tires that are currently on sale.<br /><br />OldCur & Brine: I have written to the manufacturer and am looking into whether or not this trailer was knowingly coupled with a boat to heavy for it. I have also recrunched some numbers an am unable to explain why the weight at the scales was so high when I have added the weight of boat motor and supplies and got a number that suggests the trailer is within load carrying capacities. My tare adds up to approx. 1450 lbs with full gas and gear. The owners manual states the max load is 1500 lbs for this trailer. It also states the Gross weight is 2030 lbs. So where did the 2300 lbs from the scales come from? I don't know. The only possibilty is that the car was NOT on the scale at the time but the attendant suggested that I ADD the approx tongue weight to the tare he measured - suggesting it is more than 2300 lbs. Perhaps it's time to go back to the scales.<br />I have also asked Shorelander about the tire issue - both the unusual wear and replacement tires. In the process I have noticed some discrepancies such as: my manual states the tires should be:5.3x12-C OR ST155/80D13C. I dont recognize the nomenclature for the first number but I assume it's for a 12" rim. Dont know what the C stands for in the second number but intersting that this entered data states to use a 155 wide tire instead of a 175 like is currently on it.<br />Incidentally, I have been stopped twice for inspections and been told not only my trailer is safe, but that it is one of the few stopped 'he' has seen that have the safety chains installed properly.<br /><br />Brian O: Once again, unclarified and unsubstantiated response. Look at Nic's response to my post near the top. I didn't say I hadn't read posts from people who DID use Px tires on a trailer - they're numerous. I stated I hadn't read any that had failures! Refer to my post at 8:12 pm.
 
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