2-stroke? 4-stroke? HELP?!

[JS2]

Re: 2-stroke? 4-stroke? HELP?!

That J.D. Power survey was based on 2001 model O/Bs? All the owners must have some real high engine hours on those O/Bs !!! Let's see what the reliability record is after 10 years or more of use.<br /><br />Those J.D. Power surveys are just as useless for boats and O/Bs as they are for cars. They rate owner's "opinions" after 90 days of ownership. Big deal.

 

[JS2]

Re: 2-stroke? 4-stroke? HELP?!

Jeeper must not own a modern Japanese car. Many of them require engine valve adjustments every 30,000 miles - yes, even almighty Lexus and Acura.

 

[58Whaler]

Re: 2-stroke? 4-stroke? HELP?!

I have 2 yammy four strokes that have been running great w/o problems for 3 years. I also have 2 yammy 2-strokes that have been running w/o problems for 5-10 years. It all depends on what you want, and how much you are willing to spend.

 

[Forktail]

Re: 2-stroke? 4-stroke? HELP?!

"All the owners must have some real high engine hours on those O/Bs !!!"<br /><br />It doesn't matter JS2. The study was about quality and problems. It is irrelevant that those problems occurred within one year. They did occur. What makes you think the results would improve after 10 years? There's lots of 4-strokes that have gone 10 years with zero problems....and many without adjustments. <br /><br />Regarding quality, one-third of outboard-powered boat owners report engine-related problems. Owners of new boats with four-stroke electronic fuel injection (EFI) outboard engines report the fewest number of engine problems, while owners of boats with two-stroke carburated outboard engines report the most problems.<br /><br />Consumers who purchased a new boat equipped with a two-stroke outboard engine report twice as many problems as those who purchased a boat equipped with a four-stroke outboard engine.<br /><br />I wonder when Acura and Lexus are going to start running 2-strokes because of all those valve adjustments?<br /><br />JD Power is junk? Yea. We should probably just use Evinrude's data as gospel, since they don't even make a 4-stroke. Right? <br /><br />D E N I A L.

 

[Franki]

Re: 2-stroke? 4-stroke? HELP?!

Please forktail, chill out...<br /><br />Ok, you opinion of 2 strokes is noted... <br />Ditto your opinion of 4 strokes...<br /><br />I like both.. <br /><br />The comment about lexus making two strokes is not valid...<br /><br />A marine engine is under very different conditions to an Auto.. in particular, the continues load is alot higher, as are the RPMs...<br /><br />Simple matter is, we don't know how long 100+ 4 strokes last in an outboard, because even the oldest ones are no where near the potential end of their lifespan...<br /><br />We also don't know how long DFI and ficht technology ages.. <br /><br />If we have this conversation in 10 years, there may be some validity to it..<br /><br />Apart from which, the technology for both 2 and 4 strokes is constantly evolving.. so what was valid last year may no longer be valid now...<br /><br />Who knows, rotary might become the way of the future... the we will both be wrong.. <br /><br />Let the man try both and make his own decision.<br /><br />As for your comment about Evinrude and 4 strokes.. its not valid either,, they (bombardier) sell fourstrokes, (even if they are based on Suzuki powerplants.) considering the massive size and reputation of Bombardier, do you not find it curious that they bought OMC for the ficht technology? or that they have agressively persue it??<br /><br />I consider it a good sign that they are confident there is a future for 2strokes...<br />I imagine that variable tuned length expansion chambers and closed crankcase lubrication will come sometime in the future, then its a whole new ballgame again.. who knows???<br /><br />As for 4 strokes, they will get bigger, more responsive, lighter, more efficient etc etc...<br /><br />The game goes on...<br /><br />If all you want is to get out and fish, either will do now.. treat it well, maintain it.. and either will serve you for a long long time....<br /><br />Its a proven fact in both cases.<br /><br />rgds<br /><br />Frank

 

[Forktail]

Re: 2-stroke? 4-stroke? HELP?!

"The comment about lexus making two strokes is not valid..."<br /><br />Sure it is. We continually hear over and over and over about how these "valve adjustments" are such a downfall of the 4-stroke. Heck, we even hear "Lexus and Acura" need them. The validity exists becasue if valves are such a pain in the rear, causing so many problems, and wearing out so fast, why do we find them in fine cars like Lexus and Acura. Ask yourself why don't we see 2-strokes instead?<br /><br />"A marine engine is under very different conditions to an Auto.. in particular, the continues load is alot higher, as are the RPMs..."<br /><br />Higher RPM? Yea Right. That's why almost all 4-stroke outboards run 6000-6250 rpm and most 2-strokes run 5500 rpm. Checked out what those Acura's and Lexus's rap out at?<br /><br />Continuous load? Sure. That's why the semis and tractors are all 4-strokes going a million miles up and down the freeways loaded with thousands upon thousands of pounds of goods. I counted over 30 tires on one the other day. It was pulling a 8% grade at 40 mph. Even Detroit discontinued their 2-stroke because it couldn't cut the mustard. And ask yourself what powers these big, heavy, loaded down fishing boats and cruisers? Marine 4-strokes. Cummins, CAT, Ford, Chev, etc.<br /><br />"We also don't know how long DFI and ficht technology ages.."<br /><br />Exactly. So how can they be compared to a 4-stroke with claims they are better in every aspect? I can tell you how long my 1998 Ficht lasted...one trip.<br /><br />"Let the man try both and make his own decision."<br /><br />By all means. To each his own. And no one is saying 2-strokes are bad. I'm just noting the misinformation brought out here. Besides, some of us have used both extensively. So why reinvent the wheel? Experienced advice is worth something....right?<br /><br />"As for your comment about Evinrude and 4 strokes.. its not valid either..."<br /><br />Sure it is. The Evinrude division of Bombardier doesn't even make a 4-stroke...or sell one. And Bombardier's Johnson division only sells Suzuki's that are painted white.<br /><br />"do you not find it curious that they bought OMC for the ficht technology? or that they have agressively persue it??"<br /><br />Hey, I love Bombardier. I love 2-strokes. And yes they bought the Ficht technology (as we all know). But does this make them the best outboard? Does this make a 2-stroke better than a 4-stroke? Nope. Prove it to me on my boat and then I'll agree.<br /><br />"If all you want is to get out and fish, either will do now.. treat it well, maintain it.. and either will serve you for a long long time....<br /><br />Its a proven fact in both cases."<br /><br />Well, this seems to conflict with your other statement..."We also don't know how long DFI and ficht technology ages.."<br /><br />Don't kid yourself. Some are better than others.<br /><br />Another thing. Outboard age isn't the right comparison to make. Hours, time, and type of use are. A 30 year old outboard used 10 hours a year will obviously outlive an outboard 3 years old used 1000 hours per year.<br /><br />"Please forktail, chill out..."<br /><br />There's always two sides Franki.

 

[Merc Man1635]

Re: 2-stroke? 4-stroke? HELP?!

Gentlemen, PLEASE!!! I turn to this site for advice and guidance...not to start World War III on the internet!!! I realize all of you are going to have your own opinions...THAT IS 100% OK WITH ME!!! How about we all just say what we have experienced, and let me sort out whats true or right? Sound ok with you guys? I have been doing some research, and hope to narrow it down to ONE motor by the end of February when our local marina has their 2002 blowout sale. I will surely get a great deal on a dependable motor of my choice...please guys...no more arguing about maintenance, reliability, or any of the sort...just give me what you have seen yourself and we'll go from there! Thanks for all your help!!!<br /><br />MercMan

 

[ob1jeeper]

Re: 2-stroke? 4-stroke? HELP?!

MM<br />Thanx for putting some perspective back into this "information sharing", that had begun to get a little "over-the-top".<br /><br />Like I had indicated, there is INDEED more opinion about this topic being posted on most websites, than facts... That's why I suggested you go looking for unbiased sources of info., likemagazine comparo's, JD Powers, Consumer reports, etc...<br /><br />Best of Luck in your search and decision. It is indeed a tough choice for many, due to al the conflicting opinions so many are willing to share.<br /><br />In my experience, as a transportation engineer with 30+ years (most of that as a test engineer), the experiences, and information I have to report, regarding 25+ years, with both marine engines... (2-strokes AND 4-strokes...), has convinced me (and my significant other "banker"), that in the long run it is both less expensive, and significantly less aggravating to own 4-strokes...<br /><br />Good Luck... Obiwan Jeeper

 

[manitoba1]

Re: 2-stroke? 4-stroke? HELP?!

mercman;<br /><br />I given my replies on this subject before regarding this topic but here it goes again. Since I have a Alumacraft classic 16 1987 boat I can relate directly to you and you decision. I had a 55hp Suzuki 2 stroke which failed due to a loss of an oil injector line and I was faced with a rebuild, new 2 stroke or a 4 stroke. The local suzuki dealer could have sold me a new non-current model 55hp 2 stroke identical to my old engine but newer for aprox $3000 US but I decided to go the 4 stroke route. Since my model allows up to a 75hp according to the Coastguard plate I bought a 70hp Suzuki EFI. I would never go back to a convensional 2 stroke. Consider 1st the oil that the old 2 stroke spews into the water which is not very envronmental friendly. I tell you the quietness of the 4 stroke is almost unreal compared to a 2 stroke. In fact I had so many compliments on this engine almost embarrased but yet proud of this engine. Fuel economy is much, much better than a comparable horse power 2 stroke. Much less than half. Even my 70hp is much cheaper to run than the 55hp I had. My friend has a 40hp Honda which sips fuel even when tubing. My 70 has tons of power on my boat. If your boat is rated only to a 60hp then go with the lightest motor available in a 4 stroke in the 60hp range which has EFI; this would be a merc 60hp or the suzuki/Johnson 50hp. It's not to say Yamaha Honda carbed engines are not good but EFI engines start and run better under a variety of weather conditions. DFI 2 strokes would be a option if they had an engine in the size range you<br />need. The only one I can think of is a Nissan/Tohatsu although I think merc and evinrude maybe there soon. One thing is for sure if you go EFI 4 stroke it will give you much more boating enjoyment. It did for me.<br /><br />Good luck

 

[Skinnywater]

Re: 2-stroke? 4-stroke? HELP?!

I HAVE EXPERIENCED many hours of headaches and burning eyes while fishing in my buddy's 2stroke (110 Johnson) from the exaust.<br /><br />I HAVE EXPERIENCED (94 hours so far)of great satisfaction and quality time with my 4stroke outboard.<br /><br />I HAVE EXPERIENCED a valve adjustment (20 hour break in)that took me 40 minutes to perform. Very reasonable for every 200 hours of operation.<br /><br />I WILL EXPERIENCE a timing belt inspection/adjustment at 200 hours that will take 10 minutes to perform.<br /><br />I WILL EXPERIENCE in 400 hours or so, a Honda Marine timing belt for a BF50 Honda for $30 and will be very simple (one hour)to replace.

 

[NickHar]

Re: 2-stroke? 4-stroke? HELP?!

If anyone has any doubts about longevity of 4-strokes, look no further than motorcycles. There are pleanty of 20+ yr old bikes pushing 100K miles. Complex engines with high power outputs and RPM's (excep Harleys) but maintenance is minimum and most get put through some serious power loading. <br /><br />Switched to 50HP evenrude 4-S with fuel injection a couple years ago. I'll never go back. Just like my car, when I turn the key it starts, even below freezing.<br /><br />Nick

 

[Merc Man1635]

Re: 2-stroke? 4-stroke? HELP?!

WOW! I looked at the 2002 Mercury 4-strokes at the marina the other day...a 60 HP w/ EFI will run about $5395 in the blowout sale, and 50 HP will run about $4995. I guess "If it aint BLACK, take it back!!!"

 

[clanton]

Re: 2-stroke? 4-stroke? HELP?!

As I scaned these posts again, I saw Lexus, did not read the comment. Almost the complete line of Toyota engines including the lexus engine have had the engine warranty extended by the factory because of oiling problems. Details at dealer or Motor mag. They all have there problems.

 

[wilkin250r]

Re: 2-stroke? 4-stroke? HELP?!

I don't have much experience with boats, so that may discredit me. However, I am an engineer, which adds to my credibility.<br /><br />In the motorcycle and ATV world, which is the epitome of high-performance and high-stress environments, the 4-strokes are king of reliability. The 2-strokes need constant rebuilding, replacing rings, pistons, and eventually re-sleeving. The 4 strokes only need a valve adjustment, they are bullet-proof.<br /><br />The two-strokes ARE lighter and generally faster, but require constant maintenance.

 

[ob1jeeper]

Re: 2-stroke? 4-stroke? HELP?!

Clanton, etal...<br />I did not read the Toyota TSB's you reference, but in my experience, I'd be willing to bet that the "oiling problem" is NOT one of a basic problem with the 4-stroke design, but is more likely one of an issue of executing (physically building) the affected oiling components in question, to proper design specifications.<br /><br />AND you are correct... "they DO all have thier problems"...<br /><br />However, as for me... I prefer building my house on a firm, well designed footing, rather than simply on top of the ground, which I am certain over time will move and require that I "re-build the walls to keep it standing... After many years in the transportation test business, that's the best analogy I can give to compare the differences in the BASE design of these two engines. EVEN IF BOTH are built from "the foundation up" to the same levels of quality, the one on the "better BASE foundation", will be "the reliability champ" in the long run...)<br /><br />Thus for me... make mine a 4-stroke...<br /><br />Now...to the delight of some (perhaps many), I intend to cease adding my $0.02 to any further "spirited debates" concerning this 2-S vs 4-S topic. For those of you who want to persue the facts, there are a NUMBER of sources of information available...<br /><br />I can suggest... (all available on the internet):<br />A- Consumer reports<br />B- Consumers Union<br />C- Test results published by the oil industry regarding "internal combustion powerplant wear rates.<br />D- SAE publications available for order either on-line, or via normal paper publications. SAE = (Society of Automotive Engineers...)<br /><br />FYI... The SAE includes engineering folks, from ALL of the transportation industry engineering disiplines, and product lines ranging from automobiles, to forklifts, boats {of allsizes and descriptions}, snowmobiles, trains, aircraft {and saddly yes... even including space shuttles}, cargo ships, backhoes, farm tractors, Lawn mowers, motorcycles, go-carts, Racing machines {of ALL descriptions}, etc., etc. etc... Basically ANYTHING related to machines and equipment that do work, move people, move goods, or move/handle materials.<br /><br />Good luck, Obiwan Jeeper

 

[BR549]

Re: 2-stroke? 4-stroke? HELP?!

Wow - some really strong opinions. Bottom line is you can't go wrong with either engine - it all depends on how much you want to spend. Personally I prefer 2 strokes because I like to tinker around with them - I took a look under the cover of one of those 4 strokes and got a brain tumor. Get what you like and enjoy...

 

[Merc Man1635]

Re: 2-stroke? 4-stroke? HELP?!

Any other thoughts?

 

[roscoe]

Re: 2-stroke? 4-stroke? HELP?!

Yes, go buy a new Merc and enjoy it!

 

[jsimpson]

Re: 2-stroke? 4-stroke? HELP?!

One factor I haven't seen discussed is vibration. I put a six cylinder 60 hp Merc on a FeatherCraft 14 footer in 1957 and beat everyone on Wilson Lake one afternoon. At the end of the day water was coming in at every seam on the boat. It had literally vibrated every rivet loose! We had to hog tie the boat between two closely spaced docks to keep it from sinking. Aluminum boats don't like vibration. Unless yours is welded construction, I'd vote for the four stroke. Og course you're probably not planning on overpowering it at a two-to-one ratiion, but aluminum boats REALLY tansfer vibration to everything in the baot, including the driver, quite well, so I'd STILL go with four stroke!