2-stroke? 4-stroke? HELP?!

Merc Man1635 · Feb 1, 2003

I am getting a new motor for my 16'6" Alumacraft Classic 16. I am looking for a motor in the 50-60 HP range. The boat is light, weighing in at a mere 550 pounds. What do you guys think as far as horsepower, 2-stroke or 4-stroke, and prices for each. Which horsepower and stroke combination will be best for my boat???

Franki · Feb 1, 2003

Re: 2-stroke? 4-stroke? HELP?!

What is the max rated horsepower for you boat??? If weight is a major factor.. go with the 2 stroke.. maybe a Evinrude ficht if you can find one in that power range. 60 horses is 60 horses now that they are all measured at the prop.. so 2 or 4 stroke that puts out 60 horses will do much the same thing, although perhaps at different RPMs. but a four of that size would be a excellent machine, quiet, hassle free smooth motoring... There is not alot of difference in running costs between a ficht and a four stroke. On a light boat, all things considered, you will get a better holeshot from the Ficht. (taking weight, responsivness etc into account.) Also, the Ficht would be much cheaper then a four stoke in actual purchase price, and they have an excellent warranty. I'm just not sure they make fichts that small. rgds Frank

roscoe · Feb 1, 2003

Re: 2-stroke? 4-stroke? HELP?!

If you are buying new, about $4000+ for a 2 stroke, closer to $5200+ for 4 stroke. Your boat is light enough that I don't think either one would have much advantage over the other for hole shot. The 4 stroke's power curve should generate its hp at a slightly lower rpm. But the 2 stroke will get up to the higher rpm's a little faster. So I would say thats a wash. The 4 stroke will add 75-100 pounds in weight depending on manufacturer. Considering your boat, I would think you use it mostly for fishing. So we are not out to set any performance records and probably don't do any long distance traveling, so mpgallon don't play a big a role in the decision. I would say keep it as simple as possible, carburated 2 stroke. No ficht, no efi, no 4 stroke, no Optimax, no direct injection-high or low pressure. There is nothing wrong with these products, I just don't think they are needed on a small fishing rig. But, if your boat can handle the extra weight, and you want to spend the extra dollars, and you do the additional maintenance (valve adjustments etc.), then get the 4 stroke. The only reason I would consider the 4 stroke is if you will be doing lots of trolling with the big motor and are concerned about carbon build-up. Now don't all you guys start in on me about pollution and 2 strokes.

ob1jeeper · Feb 2, 2003

Re: 2-stroke? 4-stroke? HELP?!

MM... I would not presume to assume you won't use a 16.5' boat for much of anything but a fishing boat... That said, depending on what's most important to you, both 2 & 4 strokes have their advantages... Quietness - Advantage 4-stroke Odor-free operation - Advantage 4-stroke Long Term Reliability - Advantage 4-stroke Fuel economy - Advantage 4-stroke Re-Sale value - Advantage 4-stroke Light Weight - In previous years, the advantage USED to be 2-stroke... But with the advances made with the new 4-stroke motors available today, the 4's in your HP range are so close to the same weight as a 2-stroke and to make this one a DEAD HEAT... Initial purchase price - Advantage 2-stroke... (unless you find a dealer having a fire-sale on the 4-S you want/need) AND Finally... Find a GOOD dealer in your area that you trust to aid you in getting appropriate servicing of your new motor. That will help you a BUNCH in making the final selection. For if you find that ONE GOOD dealer in your area that you trust to help you with the servicing, then go with what they sell & service... THAT single item should make THE most difference in your selection, unless of course you are able to do all the maint. and service all by your lonesome... For my situation If I were making the choice for this boat, the 4-S would be my pick... But I may have differing priorities and skill levels than you your's and/or Roscoe's... Good Luck, Obiwan Jeeper

miloman · Feb 2, 2003

Re: 2-stroke? 4-stroke? HELP?!

firstly what is the max rating for your boat you shouldnt exceed that I assume if IM correct it is 40 hp evinrude direct injection doesnt come down to that hp what year is the boat what shape is the transom in. The difference between a 4 stroke and 2 stroke in that hp range is no big deal. Depends on money but I would hang a 40 yamaha on it Just my choice

Merc Man1635 · Feb 2, 2003

Re: 2-stroke? 4-stroke? HELP?!

Ok guys, The maximum HP rating for the boat is 60 HP. It is a 1982 Alumacraft Classic 16 and the transom is very sturdy. We bought it from my aunt when her and my (former) uncle divorced 2 years ago. It has a 1985 Mercury 35 HP on there right now that they put on when they bought it from the dealer. The thing is, we like to go tubing behind this boat, so performance is also a key to this equation...it is a great boat and I love it to death! We bought it for like $2300 and have only had to put a new water pump and steering cables onto it since we bought it ($75-100). We do fish on the largest flowage in the state of Wisconsin and also fish on the Wisconsin River, the 35 HP Merc was a little too slow for the 10 mile river runs and it has no power trim and tilt, so we really had to watch the sandbars because we cant trim the motor. With this info given, can you better help me now?

steelespike · Feb 2, 2003

Re: 2-stroke? 4-stroke? HELP?!

Im stuck in the old school. Keep it simple A 2 stroke 60 hp with trim and tilt The 2 stroke is a proven,reliable,powerfull, lighter engine.And I believe it will out perform all but the most sophisticated 4 stroke,by a bunch. Better hole shot higher top end and very close fuel usage. If pollution really bothers you use artificial 2 stroke oil it is supposed to be biodegradable. In my opinion there are just to many moving parts for a 4 stroke to match a 2 stroke in maintenance and repair.

ob1jeeper · Feb 2, 2003

Re: 2-stroke? 4-stroke? HELP?!

MM... Don't mean to step on toes... But I happen to disagree with Spike on reliability... Have had both... The 2-S can simply NOT hold a candle to the 4-S's reliability... THUS... In order of proven reliability (thus MY personal choices...) 1- Honda 4-S, 2- Honda 4-S, 3-Honda 4-S, 4- Honda 4-S..... 5- Suzuki 4-S, 6- Yamaha 4-S.... Then bringing up the rear (But ONLY if I couldn't find a good local Honda, Suzy, or Yammy Dealer)... most any of the lastest versions of the 2-S's (Bombadier, Mercury, etc...)... Over the long haul, the 4-S will not only be more efficient to operate, I'd bet that it will surpass your performance expectations, and will be significantly more pleasant to operate (especially in relation to the noise levels, odors, etc...), All-the-while providing better reliability to boot. I'm afraid, what you'll get the most of here, is personal opinions... So I suggest you go read some of the latest "2 VS 4 stroke comparos", written & performed by some of the boating rag's (publications) There are darned few that do not pick the 4-S's over the 2's, for all the reasons that's been stated... Then go have a look-see at what motors the rental fleets needing 60HP motors are using... Most all have switched to 4-S's (and that is NOT a coincidence... They are simply less troublesome, and expensive to own AND operate)... The bottom line is that 2-Strokes simply do not hold the performance edge they used to, and they have ALWAYS been more expensive (significantly less fuel efficient and less reliable) than thier 4-S counterparts... If that were not the case, we would all be buzzing around town driving 2-S powered automobiles & pick-ups... Good Luck with your decision, Obiwan Jeeper

JS2 · Feb 2, 2003

Re: 2-stroke? 4-stroke? HELP?!

If 2 strokes lack reliability, then why are there so many 30-year-old models running around the great lakes? I have had zero problems with my 1995 2 stroke Mercury. Check out all the boating websites and you will see the new 4 stroke O/Bs have many problems.

JS2 · Feb 2, 2003

Re: 2-stroke? 4-stroke? HELP?!

What kind of damage occurs when the timing belt snaps in one of those Honda engines? Powerboat Reports did a report last year on the Honda BF225 and noted it had an interference engine. This means major engine damage occurs when the belt snaps - just like with Honda's auto engines.

Forktail · Feb 2, 2003

Re: 2-stroke? 4-stroke? HELP?!

Now you can't believe everything you read....but an independent study of 12,000 outboard owners is hard to brush off with stories of broken timing belts and technology that doesn't date. Check out all the boating websites and you will see the new 4 stroke O/Bs have many problems. Sureyoubetya. "J.D. Power and Associates Reports-Yamaha Sweeps Outboard Engine Awards. New Boat Owners Report Fewest Problems with Four-Stroke EFI Engines. FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE: September 4, 2002 WESTLAKE VILLAGE, Calif. Yamaha ranks highest in both two- and four-stroke outboard engine categories, according to the J.D. Power and Associates 2002 Marine Engine Competitive Information StudySM released today. The study is based on responses of nearly 12,000 consumers who purchased a new boat during the 2001 calendar year. Regarding quality, one-third of outboard-powered boat owners report engine-related problems. Owners of new boats with four-stroke electronic fuel injection (EFI) outboard engines report the fewest number of engine problems, while owners of boats with two-stroke carburated outboard engines report the most problems, according to the study. Consumers who purchased a new boat equipped with a two-stroke outboard engine report twice as many problems as those who purchased a boat equipped with a four-stroke outboard engine. In general, the study finds that for both two- and four-stroke engines, the larger the engine, the fewer the reported problems. "Among the five technologies used in outboard engines, the quality level of four-stroke EFI and carburated engines is unparalleled," Sorensen said. "In additional to quality, four-stroke engines are cleaner and quieter than two-stroke engines and are very fuel efficient. The fact that they weigh and cost more, and don¹t accelerate as rapidly as two-strokes is not much of a deterrent for many boat owners."" 4-stroke = pressurized lubrication system. This means longer engine life (less wear over time). 4-stroke = lower cylinder temperatures. This means fewer cylinder/piston problems and fewer powerhead replacements. 4-stroke = less fuel scavaging. This means better efficiency. 4-stroke = better starts. Better and longer idles. Quieter. Smoother. And so on, and so on. The 4-stroke naysayers are in denial. All the "problems" haven't surfaced. All those "extra moving parts" don't seem to be an issue. And all that "additional maintenance" is fluff. Been there done that. The 4-stroke is Cadillac. 2-strokes have their purpose. Just my opinion of course....and 12,000 other outboard owners.

Franki · Feb 2, 2003

Re: 2-stroke? 4-stroke? HELP?!

As someone mentioned, its all opinion here... There is some interesting stats on the evinrude site (www.evinrude.com) comparing a 2002 Yammy 4 stroke with a 2001 Ficht... (an independent survey, not a bombardier survey.) (there is also alot of stats comparing the 4strk honda 90hp to the equiv ficht, and the comparision was again most favourable to the ficht.) The Ficht won outright in every single category. 1. Holeshot... huge difference. 2. Top speed... about 5 knots higher. 3. Weight... think it was about 15% lighter. 4. Emmisions.. the ficht was miles ahead. 5. economy... again, the ficht was well ahead.. 6. Warranty.. evenrudes currently have a 7year warranty... who else is doing that? And that was all comparing a 2001 model to a 2002 yammy of the same HP rating. There is alot of verifiable info on their site... look into it if you are really interested.. I personally think there are three options not two. (not for you since DFI's don't go down to that power range.) 1. Carb 2stroke. 2. 4 stroke. 3. DFI 2 stroke. between 1 and 2, the 4stroke has a big advantage, but add three to the mix and its anyones ballgame. One last thing, on the reliability stakes.. who cares? they both have the potential to last 20 + years.. (proven in both cases.) but if you want to talk longevity.. what about valve stem seals, valve seats, cam belts/tensioners etc... they all need regular maintenance to maintain the status quo... with a 2 stroke, keep it clean, occasional decarbs and your done... (not counting maintanence pertaining to all outboards, 2 and 4 stroke.. (like impeller, gearcase etc.) My opinion??? stop worrying about it, go and pick yourself up a 90-98 model 2 stroke carbed 60 HP motor for a song.. and go boating... spend your cash on enjoying your boat rather then setting it up. rgds Franki

roscoe · Feb 2, 2003

Re: 2-stroke? 4-stroke? HELP?!

Yamaha? Honda? His name is MercMan, read his bio. The truth is that all these motors are fine and will work well on your boat. There are no clear winners or the buying public would have put the others out of business. I ran the same boat from 89-96, then got one deeper and wider for Winnebago and Canada. Mine was only rated for 40hp(tiller). It was a nice fishing rig, but I was at its limits for weight and space when fishing with 2 others in the boat. ob1jeeper- chill, I did not presume to assume.... But I know his boat and how it handles and what it was designed/built for, and included that sentence to let him know what I was basing my recomendation on. That way, he could correct me or elaborate on what he uses it for.

Forktail · Feb 3, 2003

Re: 2-stroke? 4-stroke? HELP?!

Here's your Evinrude surveys Franki. Better read the fine print.... "Tests performed and certified by Bombardier OEM application engineering" This would be where things like speed, accelleration, and economy are tested. "RETC" That means Ralf Evinrude Testing Center, or OMC's old testing compound in FL. Clearly on Evinrude's terms. "Dynomometer test results conducted at Bombardier". These are Bombardier's results, not Yamaha's or Honda's, etc. Furthermore when looking at the performance reports be aware of the fine print... "...data may vary...propeller options..." Many of the tests show different props used between outboards. Evinrude will specify things like "Viper" props, and put a "?" in the competitor's field. Many props are different sizes which can make a big difference. Also, Evinrude's economy was the worst in comparisons with Honda and Yamaha. Examples include the Javelin 21/225 hp and Javelin 255/225 hp. All the manufacturers meet the emission requirements of 2006. Evinrude is nothing special here. 7-year warranty? It's great if you need your outboard fixed all the time. Remember Lee Iacoca (sp) and Chrysler? It's a consumer confidence builder. But it doesn't do you much good when you're out on the open water, broken down, and a big wave is about to capsize your unpowered boat. "One last thing, on the reliability stakes.. who cares?" Are you serious? Where I live fisherman buy boats based on one main thing....reliability. It's the difference in making it home or not. Holeshot, top speed, emissions, or warranty mean nothing. You only have to find out the hard way once that going cheaper or lesser can be a big mistake. "they both have the potential to last 20 + years.. " Show me a Evinrude Ficht that's gone 20 years? 5 years? I challenge you to find one that's gone even 300 reliable hours. "what about valve stem seals, valve seats, cam belts/tensioners etc... they all need regular maintenance to maintain the status quo.." Regular maintenance? Some of Yamaha's 4-strokes don't even have rocker arms to adjust! I can see them all lined up right now...getting their valve seats and valve stem seals repaired. ROTFLMAO! Sounds like you've been listening to your Evinrude dealer too much. I'm sure the Evinrudes are good performers. And as I said before, the 2-strokes have their purpose. I hope they never go away. But to say they are better in every aspect and have an equal longevity to 4-strokes is ignorance.

bubbaboater · Feb 3, 2003

Re: 2-stroke? 4-stroke? HELP?!

I have a 16' Crestliner with 50hp 4 stroke Merc. The motor works fine and I would never go back to a 2 stroke. I don't see a wieght problem and the gas mileage and the QUITENESS is great.

ob1jeeper · Feb 3, 2003

Re: 2-stroke? 4-stroke? HELP?!

MM... If you haven't figured out that the 4 stroke is a better choice after reading all of the buzzing I seemed to have set off with the in-denial 2-stroke affecianado's, then nothing more I or Forktail can say will be of any use. Please go find some sources of un-biased tests & comparisons... Sources like JD Powers, Consumer reports, etc. ... NOT some propaganda put out by a specific manufacturer,(IE: Ficht vs the world of 4 stroke)... Then go find a LOCAL to you... HONEST businessman/dealer who handles 4 strokes, and get yourself a reliable motor... No amount of cheap price is worth anything if it ain't reliable... TRUST me on that one... The technology going into maring outboard 4-strokes today is NO less sound/proven/ AND cutting edge significant than that going into your automobile engines... When was the last time you had your fuel injected auto engine valves adjusted? When was the last time you heard of a 4-stroke being DESIGNED to allow multiple re-bores, for multiple re-builds? (That's a DESIGNED IN consideration for 2-strokes, BECAUSE THEY KNOW they will need it !!!) roscoe... Did not intend to ruffle your feathers, just wanted to provide MM a counter point to your assumptions, which seemed a tad presumptuous, given the amount of information that had been provided... Like yourself, I had a nearly identical set up at one time. And in my ecxperience, it seems that MANY (including myslef) use/used this type of boat for the very things MM indicated in a later reply... Lastly... Seems some guys are obviously WAY TOO SENSITIVE about being faced with the truth that someone may have found a better "mousetrap" (in this case a more reliable and efficient means of powering your boat...) MM... Good luck... Hope all this diatribe hasn't confused you too much... Obiwan Jeeper

KIWI MERCMAN · Feb 3, 2003

Re: 2-stroke? 4-stroke? HELP?!

From one MERCMAN to Another Go 4 stroke, Ive been in this game for the last 25 years and have worked for the black ones as a field rep and trainer. I have an Opti 150 and love it , but if I was looking for a 50 to 75 hp it would be a four stroke. I've seen them tested in places you couldn't even think about and they came through great.50hp's doin 3to 4000 hr's running. The drive shaft housing bushes were the first things to wear out at about 2000 hrs New Zealand Propeller Mag did a test on all 50 hps, Yam, Honda, Merc,Mar, Joho, Evin, Tohatsu and Spooks, both 2 and 4 strokes and they all came thriugh very well. Go 4 mate it's great Kiwi

Franki · Feb 3, 2003

Re: 2-stroke? 4-stroke? HELP?!

You misunderstand me.. i love 4 strokes.. Even my lawm mower is a 4strk.... My point was simply that 2 strokes still have their uses, and technology notwithstanding, they will be around for awhile yet.. put simply, when you need the most power for the least dollars, and the least weight.. you can't beat a 2stroke. Incidently, has anyone read an unbiased article comparing a modern ficht to a modern 4stroke?? I would love to read it. (I am serious not sarcastic) One last point.. the only part of a ficht that is new technology is the direct injection.. the rest of the moter is technology that has been around for 40 years or more, and there are alot of motors around from that time period.. that was what my comment about reliability was about. For that matter, show me a 100+ housepower 4 stroke outboard that is 30 years old.... I don't want to get in a pi$$ing match over this.. I would happily take either a ficht or a 4 stroke.. rgds Franki

Forktail · Feb 3, 2003

Re: 2-stroke? 4-stroke? HELP?!

That sounds reasonable Franki. 2-strokes are very reliable and they do have a purpose (that's why I still have some). When they become as enjoyable and reliable to own as a 4-stroke....I'll be going back.

roscoe · Feb 3, 2003

Re: 2-stroke? 4-stroke? HELP?!

jeeper-- funny you should say "roscoe... Did not intend to ruffle your feathers," Roscoe is a bird, a rosebreested cockatoo to be precise. He was sitting on my knee (as he is now) when I needed a screen name. His feathers are easily ruffled, but mine are not.

2-stroke? 4-stroke? HELP?!

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