2-4-C

muc

"Retired" Association of Marine Technicians...
Joined
Jul 7, 2004
Messages
2,421
it's gone --- once available stock is sold
engine coupler grease - gone
u-joint and gimbal bearing grease - gone
Special Lube 101 - gone
Perfect Seal - gone
I feel old
I remember when they started adding Teflon to the 2-4-C and caused a big kerfuffle at a lot of dealers. Me and Pepperidge Farm are probably the only ones that remember.
Turns out @Bondo has been right with his any grease is better then no grease at all ----- as long as it's Mercury Extreme Marine Grease. Still don't agree about the non-tox tho.
😊
 

alldodge

Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Mar 8, 2009
Messages
44,444
Stuff changes, things that don't bring in money is left behind

Things that use to be use this or you will damage your drive/motor is mostly smoke and mirrors. So goes Merc, VP and others, so how much is actually real and what is hype?

You did say something recently that really caught my attention. It was something to the effect that going to OB is the way to go for salt water, it's cheaper and better to stick with IO for fresh water. This is the main reason I'm going to go to a Formula 270 IO and ditch my Crap O real OB boat. The OB Merc piece of Crap is way to maintenance intensive
 

alldodge

Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Mar 8, 2009
Messages
44,444
When I get a newer 8.2 with Gen 3 cool fuel I will be changing it over to older Gen 2 or even a Aeromotive (or other) with return to tank option and fix the Merc crud. Time to fix a bad design
 

Scott Danforth

Grumpy Vintage Moderator still playing with boats
Staff member
Joined
Jul 23, 2011
Messages
53,063
I have been using a lot of farm implement greases lately.

I use a lot of John Deere cornhead grease at work for worm gear actuators. The stuff works for a whole lot more (got turned onto it 20+ years ago to run in 50's trucks steering gearboxes)
 

Bondo

Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Apr 17, 2002
Messages
71,516
it's gone --- once available stock is sold
engine coupler grease - gone
u-joint and gimbal bearing grease - gone
Special Lube 101 - gone
Perfect Seal - gone
I feel old
I remember when they started adding Teflon to the 2-4-C and caused a big kerfuffle at a lot of dealers. Me and Pepperidge Farm are probably the only ones that remember.
Turns out @Bondo has been right with his any grease is better then no grease at all ----- as long as it's Mercury Extreme Marine Grease. Still don't agree about the non-tox tho.
😊
Ayuh,...... Well, that sucks,.....

As for Perfect Seal, I believe permatex #3, the liquid, is exactly the same as perfect seal,..... it's on my bench,.....
In my shop, I have 2 grease guns, my battery powered gun has equipment grease, aka: chassis grease, which I use for anything with ball, needle, roller, etc. type bearings,....
My hand-pump grease gun, has 2-4-C in it for bushing type bearings, tie-rods, etc,....
I think I have 3 or 4 fresh tubes left, maybe I oughta find another 1/2 dozen to get me through to where grease no longer matters to me,..... :rolleyes:
 

muc

"Retired" Association of Marine Technicians...
Joined
Jul 7, 2004
Messages
2,421
Ayuh,...... Well, that sucks,.....

As for Perfect Seal, I believe permatex #3, the liquid, is exactly the same as perfect seal,..... it's on my bench,.....
Them's fighting words Sir. I joke with the younger techs that this is a hill I'm happy to die on!
I have both on my bench. I had always used #3 at home and PS at work until I retired and kept my road box with all the chemicals and lubes. I find Perfect seal to be a little thicker (more solids) and it's harder to clean off when disassembling something that's been together for a few years. Also seems to be a little stickier when using it to hold a gasket in place during assembly.
But I'll admit #3 does seem to work "good enough".
The "good enough" is what gets me upset. I've been in this industry for a long time and watched as the manufactures have slowly changed from building a product that they designed and supported to last for decades. Now I'm seeing design and support for 10-15 years max. It makes me sad because they could do soo much better, if they wanted to.
 

muc

"Retired" Association of Marine Technicians...
Joined
Jul 7, 2004
Messages
2,421
Stuff changes, things that don't bring in money is left behind

Things that use to be use this or you will damage your drive/motor is mostly smoke and mirrors. So goes Merc, VP and others, so how much is actually real and what is hype?

You did say something recently that really caught my attention. It was something to the effect that going to OB is the way to go for salt water, it's cheaper and better to stick with IO for fresh water. This is the main reason I'm going to go to a Formula 270 IO and ditch my Crap O real OB boat. The OB Merc piece of Crap is way to maintenance intensive
When I get a newer 8.2 with Gen 3 cool fuel I will be changing it over to older Gen 2 or even a Aeromotive (or other) with return to tank option and fix the Merc crud. Time to fix a bad design
I really don't have much of an opinion about saltwater. I've probably only worked on 30-50 salt boats, way less then 1% of the boats I have worked on.

I've seen draining Merc gear lube out of a Volvo drive and refilling (sometimes need to do it twice) fix a slipping cone clutch.
I've seen Special Lube 101 last many years longer on a prop shaft then anything else except Perfect Seal.
Some is hype, but most is real. Take engine oil -- marine certified oil is better -- in marine engines. I've worked at both Hatteras and Tiara dealers. They were both exceptional boats when I worked on them. S.S screws and bolts that had been chrome plated for extra protection. Never 2 dissimilar metals touching each other and many other things that made them stand out against lesser boats.
But does all this really matter in a place like Minnesota? Probably not, but in salt --- probably quite a bit. Depending on the situation "good enough" is ok.

I feel for you on this boat. When I worked for a Chap dealer, they were a pretty good boat. Better then Sea Ray and many others, not as good as Regal or Formula. Merc is a good motor and support is better then anyone. I feel that this is mostly a dealer problem.

My advice to people buying a new boat over 24'.
I honestly feel the dealer is more important for happiness then the brand of boat.
Over the years I've worked at new boat dealers (over 25 different boat brands). I've worked for probably the best dealer in the USA in terms of happy boaters. Also a few vey shady dealers and the in-between. I've seen (and sometimes been part of) what happens behind the curtain. It's hard when a "problem" boat comes along. We are faced with the fact that we are going to have to spend more money then we made off of the sale. When a dealer isn't making the profit margins that they should (and most aren't), They just don't think they can afford the $$$ required to keep the buyer happy. 90% of boat or motor warranty work is done at a loss in this industry. In all my years with the 27-50' boats --- I only saw ONE boat that didn't need warranty work.
All the major builders make a good boat in most models and most make a few pretty poor models. A good dealer can afford to keep the customer happy.
It's easy for me to say, cuz it ain't my $$$$. But trying to save 5-10% going with with a "better" deal, can sometimes have some terrible ramifications.

I've tried to be very clear about the O/B vs I/O debate. Once you get into the 200hp+ range, they both become incredibly complicated. Mercury Marine is very clear that O/Bs will cost 3X in "extended warranty" work in the 5 years after the real warranty expires than a I/O will. Getting them O/Bs that quiet and smooth comes at a pretty high price. None of them will have much chance to outlast a hull. Especially in salt. For a freshwater boat in your range, I think the choice is clear. Don't get me wrong sometimes O/Bs make sense. And lets face it, a couple or three O/Bs hanging off the transom looks pretty sexy!

On the fuel system revamp. Think long and hard. I'm told that the fuel in these high tech motors have "pulses" in them. Each PCM gets it's own maps to work with something as simple as the rubber hose that connects the pump to the rail. I know a company that was designing a CF3 pump to sell aftermarket, they dropped it once they realized during testing they would have to reprogram some of the PCMs. That's getting into EPA's area and most company's are still a little leery of them. Once you change a system like this? Look at Merc, they haven't been able to adapt the FSM to work on their 4.5 +6.2L. Me thinks that if it was easy, it would be done by now.
 
Last edited:

muc

"Retired" Association of Marine Technicians...
Joined
Jul 7, 2004
Messages
2,421
I should add that if you buy from a good dealer --- you will never get that level of service anywhere else.
Out of all the non new boat selling dealers I worked for. Only one delivered top notch service, and we charged for it -- oh did we charge. And truth be told, I think most of that was the owner (shout out to Bill) because he worked, man did he work. Only time in the biz I worked for someone so focused 24/7 on keeping boaters happy.
 

alldodge

Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Mar 8, 2009
Messages
44,444
I'm told that the fuel in these high tech motors have "pulses" in them. Each PCM gets it's own maps to work with something as simple as the rubber hose that connects the pump to the rail. I know a company that was designing a CF3 pump to sell aftermarket, they dropped it once they realized during testing they would have to reprogram some of the PCMs.
Reading intently, but sure like to hear from who told you this. Marine motors are by far more sensitive than Auto?
 

Scott Danforth

Grumpy Vintage Moderator still playing with boats
Staff member
Joined
Jul 23, 2011
Messages
53,063
My advice to people buying a new boat over 24'.
I honestly feel the dealer is more important for happiness then the brand of boat.
Many dealers are struggling right now until you get into the range of boats that are resistant to financial climate changes. even great dealerships are seeing a slowdown in service as new boat sales drop.

I've tried to be very clear about the O/B vs I/O debate. Once you get into the 200hp+ range, they both become incredibly complicated. Mercury Marine is very clear that O/Bs will cost 3X in "extended warranty" work in the 5 years after the real warranty expires than a I/O will. Getting them O/Bs that quiet and smooth comes at a pretty high price. None of them will have much chance to outlast a hull. Especially in salt. For a freshwater boat in your range, I think the choice is clear. Don't get me wrong sometimes O/Bs make sense. And lets face it, a couple or three O/Bs hanging off the transom looks pretty sexy!
Merc has a way of hypercomplixification of EVERYTHING they touch. Many of the engineers in fon du lac used to work for me at one time or another, so I keep in touch with many of them

Merc's cooling systems are way to complicated all to chase that Consumer Reports rating of service points (single point drain system is a perfect example).
 

Bondo

Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Apr 17, 2002
Messages
71,516
I've tried to be very clear about the O/B vs I/O debate. Once you get into the 200hp+ range, they both become incredibly complicated.
Ayuh,...... 'n Expensive,.....

A 350 long block is $5,000,00 on a pallet, out the door,.... Used is less,....
An Alpha drive is 'bout $2,500.00,......
A big new OB is $20,000/ $40,000, or more,.....
 

Scott Danforth

Grumpy Vintage Moderator still playing with boats
Staff member
Joined
Jul 23, 2011
Messages
53,063
And with everyone LS swapping good SBCs and BBCs, many good motors are in the $1k-2k range only needing a cam swap and marine electrics and exhaust to make good boat motors
 

muc

"Retired" Association of Marine Technicians...
Joined
Jul 7, 2004
Messages
2,421
Reading intently, but sure like to hear from who told you this. Marine motors are by far more sensitive than Auto?
1. was another tech who came back from MerCruiser school and said the engineers were running around looking for a particular fuel injection hose. Story was they had changed vendors for this hose and now some of the engines weren't meeting emissions testing with the new hose.
2. was someone who was looking into funding the people who were trying to make a aftermarket CF3.
Both of these were before O2 sensors on I/Os. Maybe things have changed?

No idea about auto. 😁 Other then some of the engines look somewhat alike.

I sure get people trying to keep the cost down. But the fact is that the boat builders profit more on these new boats with all the complications. And the market seems to want all the goodies. MFD on the dash, joystick steering, nav, fancy transducers and etc.
There will always be a used market, but I get a lot of calls and visits from people who bought a used boat and are asking "how much to add this" because their friend bought a new boat with it. Usually disappointed when they find out.
 

Pmt133

Lieutenant Commander
Joined
Jan 6, 2022
Messages
1,782
Muc, I had an auto engine with a fueling problem. Would add a ton of injector duty cycle at certain RPM, pull it back higher up and then come back at double the initial problem RPM. Took months of diagnostic to figure out what was causing it. Problems only occurred at steady state rpm, similar to a boat operating. It would actually go... 90% DC which is all the ECM would allow the injector duty cycle to get to.

Solution was replace soft injector fuel line to the rails. Original fuel line was replaced with a stiffer, higher pressure rated fuel line that ended up having less give and the injector pulses were causing pressure spikes and drops in pulses in the fuel line to the point it would stop flowing fuel. Measured flow dropped, pressure was all over the place and engine was going dead lean despite the added fuel. We assume it was syncing up with spikes in the intake on the vacuum pressure regulator. Replaced it with a softer line still rated above the pressure by a safe margin, used the same tune up and all issues went away. Steady pressure, no more lean out, stable flow. Strangest thing I've ever seen. You also wouldn't see it if the engine weren't operating at steady state RPM around 3200. Most vehicles hardly spend any time at that engine speed but boats sure do and you would see it on a load cell dyno developing a tune...

So I totally believe there are sensitivities present in a boat that wouldn't be in an auto application. Hell outside of a dyno it was a hard problem to duplicate on the street unless you drove a very certain way.
 

muc

"Retired" Association of Marine Technicians...
Joined
Jul 7, 2004
Messages
2,421
@Pmt133 yes I’ve seen so many weird things happen when people try to out think the designer. I really try to stay with OEM as much as possible.
But sometimes it works. Case in point was a pair of Cummins in a Tiara. Complaint was excessive oil consumption and smoky exhaust. Customer wanted me to install Walker Air Seps. I was reluctant but customer insisted. When I show up at the Marina a Cummins dealer tech shows up at the same time to work on a different boat. I explained the situation and asked for advice. He says that the Air-Sep will fix the problem. Says that in some hulls with these engines, the boat runs real nice at an RPM that is just as the supercharger is dropping off and the turbo is spooling up. Says Cummins is aware of the problem and has fixed it with a reprogram of the ECM. Stopped dead in his tracks and looks me in the eye and says DO NOT tell the customer about this. The air seps will fix the issue and I don’t want to be coming back here to swap ECMs.
 

Scott Danforth

Grumpy Vintage Moderator still playing with boats
Staff member
Joined
Jul 23, 2011
Messages
53,063
must have been a dealer or marina tech. Most cummins techs just reprogram the ECM if there is an approved change from the fuel systems group.
 
Top