1995 venom 200 Hard to keep running at startup

[DannyMc]

I bought a used 1995 Johnson 200 venom and ran it for less than a year before it blew. I just had it rebuilt. It has always been hard to start since I have had it. I had oil injector removed and mix my gas now. Mechanic told me to run double oil for 10 hrs and low rpms. I have done this for 8 hrs. Startups are tough but after that it runs great. The quick start idles it high for about 30 seconds then goes to idle down and then jumps back up again. It does this for 2 or 3 times and then dies. When started back up it fires right away and idles high for about 10 to 15 seconds and then dies as if the key was turned off. After about 2 times of this it stays running. At first take off its a little sluggish at first but then comes out of the hole great. It did this before the rebuild as well. Is this normal for the quick start? Also after some research I read about the hoses that go from the outside bottom of each cylinder to the intake manifold. Pulled the nipples(part # 0436194) out to see if the check valves were bad. I took one out and was able to blow through both ends so I assume its bad. I took the hose off and found that it had a piece of steel about 1/2" long plugging the line. I checked the other lines and all six where plugged. Is the reason they are plugged is because they are bad or could there be another reason? They are roughly $20 each so would it be worth it to replace them or would it cause a different problem somewhere else? Thanks.

My first post, hope I did it right.

 

[Bosunsmate]

Re: 1995 venom 200 Hard to keep running at startup

Blocked lines do cause bad starting and running.
Ive never worked on that engine but seems odd that they are blocked.
Hopefully someone else can be more clear on this for you

 

[DannyMc]

Re: 1995 venom 200 Hard to keep running at startup

Can someone tell me what the lines are for or what would happen if the check valves were bad?

 

[bob johnson]

Re: 1995 venom 200 Hard to keep running at startup

the hoses are recirculating lines... they feed. I think there are check valves on the small fittings they attach to that are pressed into the block!... I doubt they have a significant effect on your motor...I say doubt, because I am not sure...but they don't supply air or fuel or have spark, so they cant be THAT important....but they are there for a reason, probably so residual oils and unburnt fuels get cycled back into the cylinder to be burnt.....I would THINK it might be like a cars egr valve. But am not sure....bob

 

[daselbee]

Re: 1995 venom 200 Hard to keep running at startup

Those check valves you see are only half of the total number of recirc check valves on that engine. Six are visible screwed into the side of the intake.
There are six more pressed into the face of the intake that are only accessible when the front of the engine is disassembled. They are round, about the size of a dime, with a screen over the center opening, and multiple holes and an o-ring for sealing when pressed into their homes.

So, the recirc lines run like this....#1 runs over to #2, and #2 runs over to #1. 3 to 4 and 4 to 3....5 to 6 and 6 to 5.

They are not EGR valves or anything like it. They serve to sort of balance the cylinders' intake pressures and help to smooth out the
idling. I have clamped them off on purpose many times to see what happens, and I cannot tell any difference. Oh, and yes, in my testing, all twelve valves were known tested and good.

The recirc valves are not your problem. I would look first at the primer solenoid output lines, making sure you get good fuel flow thru them ALL THE WAY TO THE BACK OF THE MANIFOLD. The nipple that the lines attach to on the back of the manifold can clog too.
That would be my first place to look when hard starting....assuming compression and spark are good.

Idle problems....clean your idle circuits in the carb/throttle bodies. See my many posts on this subject....use the search.

Do a perfect link and sync...per the manual.

 

[DannyMc]

Re: 1995 venom 200 Hard to keep running at startup

Thanks! Im glad I didn't waste money on the recirculation valves. I will check the primer solenoid output lines next.

 

[daselbee]

Re: 1995 venom 200 Hard to keep running at startup

Well, one thing is certainly weird....someone has plugged the hoses up with steel slugs....
Once you sort out the starting and idle as best you can by looking at carbs, etc....then as a last touch-up...then you may want to address recirc valves as a possible rough idle problem.

 

[daselbee]

Re: 1995 venom 200 Hard to keep running at startup

Your starting procedure can be wrong too.

Prime up bulb til hard.
Raise fast idle lever. You will eventually find the sweet spot for how high to raise it.
Turn key to start, all the while pressing the key in to activate the primer solenoid.
When engine fires, adjust fast idle lever down as needed.
If needed, bump the key in if it tries to die on you...just enough to keep it running.

As it warms up, the idle will smooth and the engine will not stall.

All this assuming there is not any other problem.

 

[DannyMc]

Re: 1995 venom 200 Hard to keep running at startup

That pretty much describes my startup procedure to a T. How long should it take to warm up? Maybe Im just being too picky. Also if I pull the output hoses off at the back of the manifold and I have the bulb pumped and key on when I push the key in does the motor have to be turning over to spray fuel out?

 

[Bosunsmate]

Re: 1995 venom 200 Hard to keep running at startup

Yes motor needs to be turning
It can often take 30secs or so to warm up properly

 

[DannyMc]

Re: 1995 venom 200 Hard to keep running at startup

With bulb tight and high idle about halfway I hold in key while starting. Once it fires I continue to hold in key until it runs smooth and the quick start is on bumping in the key if needed. The quick start will run about 30 seconds and idle down but then it immediately idles back up. Does this for 2 or 3 times. Once it idles down and stays I back off the high idle and back up. When I put it back in neutral it dies. Fires back instantly by turning key only. Idles high for about 10 seconds and dies as if the key was turned off. Fires right back up and sometimes does that again but not always. First takeoff is a little sluggish but is running great before getting out of the hole. I can go fish my first spot for 3 hrs and it will fire right up idle high for about 10 seconds and run great. Its just the startup that has me thinking something is off a little somewhere. Is it normal for the quick start to idle down and right back up?

 

[daselbee]

Re: 1995 venom 200 Hard to keep running at startup

No, once QS disengages, it will not come back on until you shut the motor off, and then re-start.
QS engages at every re-start, no matter what the engine temp is. Even hot engines...the QS will engage for 10 secs, then drop out.

The stator has a pair of orange wires that feed the pack. This pair of wires needs to be up to spec for QS to work right, as well as easy starting. It is called the power coil....it is NOT the charge coil(s).

I still think you need to look at throttle body cleaning, tho.

How do the other required tests do? Compression and spark across all six???

 

[DannyMc]

Re: 1995 venom 200 Hard to keep running at startup

I only have 8 hours on rebuild so I haven't check compression. Today I will Check primer solenoid output lines and clean nipples. I will also take a look at orange wires from the stator and go from there. Thanks for all the info.

 

[bob johnson]

Re: 1995 venom 200 Hard to keep running at startup

That pretty much describes my startup procedure to a T. How long should it take to warm up? Maybe Im just being too picky. Also if I pull the output hoses off at the back of the manifold and I have the bulb pumped and key on when I push the key in does the motor have to be turning over to spray fuel out?

NO..in this specific question, concerning the primer solenoid......the motor does NOT have to be on.... the pressure in the gas line, will go through the primer to the manifold!!!

bob

 

[DannyMc]

Re: 1995 venom 200 Hard to keep running at startup

Ok, here is what I found today. I pulled all the lines from the primer solenoid and all were clear as well as the nipples. I put primer in manual and pumped the bulb until tight and continued to squeeze until I saw fuel come out of the line. I don't know how much is supposed to come out. I was expecting a nice stream, but was just barely more than a drip. I then pulled one off of the port side and it came out as I expected. So knowing that all the lines where clear I pulled both output lines off of the primer solenoid and squeezed the bulb. The nipple to the front of the motor that feeds the port side sprayed about 3 times more fuel than the other. I was by myself so I did not try it in out of manual with the key in and turning the motor. While doing this I noticed fuel spraying from what appeared to be a fuel pressure sensor. The fuel line T'd off just before the fuel pump and went to this. It had a socked for wires but was not hooked up so I removed it and the T and ran the line straight from the filter to the pump. While doing this I bumped the output line from the fuel pump and it sprayed out fuel. I tightened the clamp and fixed that. Put the muffs on and pumped bulb pushed in key and turned. When it fired up I let off the key just for fun and it died. Fired it back and held in key until it idled fast and let off. It idled fine, but the quick start ran for much longer than 10 seconds. I killed it and let it set for a few mins and it fired right up just by turning the key. The quick start ran for 10 sec and idled down. Hopefully that was part of the problem. Shouldn't both output ports on the primer solenoid spray the same amount? The gasket under the cap of it sticks out about 1/16 all the way around son I'm thinking it been rebuilt before.
Thanks again

 

[Bosunsmate]

Re: 1995 venom 200 Hard to keep running at startup

Yes both output ports should be about even

 

[daselbee]

Re: 1995 venom 200 Hard to keep running at startup

That device near the input of the fuel pump is the vacuum sensor. It is connected ("t"ed) into the incoming fuel line, which is almost always under suction. The fuel pump is sucking on that line to pull fuel to the engine.
If a restriction develops in the incoming fuel line develops, like a bad anti-siphon valve, or a bad primer bulb, or a clogged fuel filter, the pump keeps pumping, trying to get that gas. The vacuum/ suction in the fuel line begins to build up and when it reaches 7 inches of mercury vacuum, the vacuum sensor switches to ground, signaling the tach to turn on the check engine light, and sound the warning horn.

They leak. They break. They fail. They are expensive. But without it you can actually run your engine lean accidentally with no warning from the tach and buzzer.

Regarding Bob's post above...yes he is correct. Residual pressure from pumping the bulb will cause gas to flow out the primer solenoid if it is activated by the key, engine not running. But it will be a small amount...not enough to properly prime the engine. These loopers need a lot of priming gas for cold start. When you hold the key in while starting, the fuel pump is now working to pressurize the primer system, and fuel flows constantly when the engine is turning over as long as the key is held in.

This myth about "turn key to on, hold key in for 8 seconds...." That is, well, nonsense. Just hold the key in all the while you are cranking the engine.

Once the engine is hot, for the rest of the day, you should be able to just bump the key and it will start right up. Depends on how long you stop at your favorite fishing holes or nude beaches.....

 

[DannyMc]

Re: 1995 venom 200 Hard to keep running at startup

If I am mixing my own fuel is the vacuum sensor needed? I had all the oil injector mess removed when I had it rebuilt. It still had the fuel line connected, but not the wires.

 

[daselbee]

Re: 1995 venom 200 Hard to keep running at startup

Sure you need it. It has nothing to do with the mix....all to do with the possibility of running lean...too little fuel/oil at high RPM.
Not enough gas/oil charge per cylinder because the carbs are starving for fuel...you get it?

 

[DannyMc]

Re: 1995 venom 200 Hard to keep running at startup

Yes, I get it now. I will put that back on and hope it was leaking from the hose. I assume it really wasn't doing anything since the wires were not plugged in. Do you happen to know what color the wires are on the plug? I didn't see a loose plug, but I could have missed it. Thanks again, you've been a huge help.