1989 Johnson VRO - Solid Alarm - Overload?

[boatgreg]

My 1989 Johson 60HP has been running good - no alarms UNTIL this weekend. This weekend I over engineered my boat by installing a 4-position battery switch (batt1, batt2, batt 1+2, and off). I also installed a new marine staring battery for the motor which raised the voltage to 13v which is highest I've seen for a while (I've been using old battery). I triple checked my wiring over two days so I feel pretty good about my work. While the switch was in Batt1 position I started the motor and it was running great. WIthout thinking, I switched the switch to batt1+2 position. (Batt2 is an old battery barely hitting 12V.) and within several seconds a solid alarm sounded and my ultrasound fish finder went nuts; still spins but light is out. All other electronics are good, the motor starts, and I haven't found any blown fuses or breakers. The solid alarm sounds as soon as I turn key to first position even after 30min of engine shut off (cooled). Although my oil reservoir is about 1/3 full and although the motor wasn't running long, I don't think its a oil or heat issue. After looking through many on line schematics I saw that there is a diode in line with the fuse. Could I have overloaded the diode and or something else? What regulates voltage? What the purpose of a rectifier in a DC circuit?

 

[racerone]

The stator on your motor produces AC pulses.----The rectifier turns it into a DC pulse to be stored in the 12 volt battery.----

 

[dingbat]

Guessing you killed your rectifier and your pumping AC into the system

 

[boatgreg]

My motor from what I can tell only has one thermocouple which I removed to test and it tested good. I removed the wires on the rectifier and tested it while it was still attached to the motor, it tested good. I did start the motor today which started and ran fine. No hot water to the touch. However, as I slowly moved the ignition switch to the off position the arm/horn stopped while the motor continued running. Could this mean I have a bad ignition/choke switch or was I likely just between switch contacts? The switch from time to time does stick in start mode. Because of this and because it is likely the original switch I ordered a replacement switch. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000A7BCNC/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Remember, at the same time that the horn sounded the ultra-sound fish finder went nuts and the red dot stopped working but the device continued to "spin". How can the alarm/horn and fish finder be linked?

With a solid horn I don't think my issue is with the oil reservoir float switch. I'm really not sure how to test the oil reservoir. I did manually slide the float up and down a few times, resinstalled it, and horn remain on constantly.

Thoughts? Suggestions?

 

[boatgreg]

I changed out the rectifier and noticed, besides the solid constant alarm, the battery voltage slowly increases from 13V to 16V after a minute or so of the motor running. How does this motor regulate voltage?

 

[oldboat1]

You might want to make the change described in the service bulletin:

https://forums.iboats.com/attachments/2276r1-jpg.120031/

Leave the battery switch set to "both" and the charge will be directed to both banks (lowest charged battery first). Your depth finder may be directly hooked to the weak battery (which you might want to replace).

Check the engine for overheating.

 

[boatgreg]

You might want to make the change described in the service bulletin:

https://forums.iboats.com/attachments/2276r1-jpg.120031/

Leave the battery switch set to "both" and the charge will be directed to both banks (lowest charged battery first). Your depth finder may be directly hooked to the weak battery (which you might want to replace).

Check the engine for overheating.

If voltage regulation is the problem, does it make sense for me to switch from rectifier to a regulator rectifier as sold on marineengine.com or is this a band-aid approach? I have 3cylender 60HP Johnson. Thanks!

http://www.marineengine.com/newparts/part_details.php?pnum=CDI193-3408

 

[dingbat]

If voltage regulation is the problem, does it make sense for me to switch from rectifier to a regulator rectifier as sold on marineengine.com or is this a band-aid approach? I have 3cylender 60HP Johnson. Thanks!

http://www.marineengine.com/newparts/part_details.php?pnum=CDI193-3408

Your bouncing back and forth between problems. Replace the ignition switch and go from there.

Did you have a “ regulation” issue prior to rewiring the batteries?

Did you have the alarm prior to rewiring the batteries?

Alarms are triggered through ground. Start disconnecting alarm inputs one at a time until you isolate the offending circuit.

 

[boatgreg]

I did not have an alarm issue before wiring the batteries of which included one new battery nor did I have a regulation issue. The new ignition switch is working.

Yesterday, I worked on resolving the constant alarm. I disconnecting 3 wire connections along the tan wire path; the alarm continued. I disconnected 3 or 4 wire harness connectors except for the primary power harness from battery and the remote control harness, sadly the alarm continued. I also removed the helm dashboard from circuit (except for wire running from tachometer). The only way I can stop the alarm is by disconnecting a 20A fuse feeding off power from the starter. This fuse is protected by a thick rubber housing which has a Red with Violet stripe wire that goes to the motors terminal block. There was continuity (diode tester mode) from load side of fuse to the terminal block but there wasn't continuity to ground so I assume this wire is good but its tough to trace wires. During trouble shooting that 20A fuse did blow once when I hit one of the four trim switches but didn't blow again after replacing 20A fuse.

Its my understanding that a solid horn is typically an indicator of overheat issue. Since the horn sounds when the motors cold, and since I disconnected the three individual thermo sensor wire can I rule out overheat sensor as being the problem? If I switch the investigation to the oil injector as possible root cause I'm not sure how to test it. There's only a two conductor ribbon wire coming from the tank which goes to the motor positive and negative bolts. I have NOT disconnected these two wires. Does testing the oil injector next make sense? The exhaust seems to show oil burning. After the horn started to sound I filled it full from 1/3 level but that didn't help.

Do I go down the oil trouble shooting path or do I search for what caused the unregulated voltage path and the possible damage done as the result of high voltage; odd tach behavior, and ultra-sounder damaged. I even questioned the new battery being overcharged as root cause but when I run the motor on an old battery (marine) I get the same high voltage climb.

I appreciate assistance from the forum, its a painful but pleasurable experience learning about my old bass boat and Johnson motor.

What's next? No, I don't want to sell it.

 

[racerone]

Perhaps the horn itself is bad.----Not sure what you have but newer horns sound when 12 volts is applied.----Then shut off after 2 seconds.----There is a wee electronic circuit in the horn.----Perhaps it has failed.

 

[boatgreg]

Perhaps the horn itself is bad.----Not sure what you have but newer horns sound when 12 volts is applied.----Then shut off after 2 seconds.----There is a wee electronic circuit in the horn.----Perhaps it has failed.

I considered that last evening thinking a horn would only be about $15, well I found a direct replacement that would fit in the remote control for $90. Yikes! I can still remove it for testing. It has two wires (violet and tan) and ground.

 

[dingbat]

I found a direct replacement that would fit in the remote control for $90. Yikes! I can still remove it for testing. It has two wires (violet and tan) and ground.

Well that tell us there is control circuit in there.

Violet is power and tan is control. Grounding tan should cause an alarm but not sure how you test the logic.

 

[boatgreg]

All, thanks for the feedback. Before I spend the money ($90) on a replacement horn I'm going to double check resistance/continuity of the tan wire from the remote control to the motor. Included in the test process will be disconnecting the ribbon cable from the VRO. I will solve this.

I'm going to switch from the horn issue to the voltage issue. Could the two issues be related? Could high voltage have damaged the horn circuitry? Remember, when the horn started sounding a solid tone my ultra-sounder made a loud spinning sound and the indicator light stopped working. In addition, the tachometer jumping really high but the motor actually stayed constant. Yes, the motor was running. The trim, volt, and water gauges all appear okay. The dashboard instruments is wired from a "6-way 12V fuse block blade" which is wired from battery switch and then from the Duralast Marine starting battery.

1. What is suppose to regulate voltage on my 1989 Johnson 60hp VRO motor?
2. What can I eliminate as NOT being the issue; Power Pack, Stator, Battery,...?
3. I had excessive voltage climb after replacing the rectifier. Should I try a non-OEM regulator rectifier? Such as Amazon; CDI Electronics 193-3408 Johnson/Evinrude Regulated Rectifier - 2/3/4/6 Cyl (1969-2000)

I don't want to replace a $90 horn only to have it fried.

I greatly appreciate your input/suggestions.

 

[boatgreg]

All, thanks for the feedback. Before I spend the money ($90) on a replacement horn I'm going to double check resistance/continuity of the tan wire from the remote control to the motor. Included in the test process will be disconnecting the ribbon cable from the VRO. I will solve this.

I'm going to switch from the horn issue to the voltage issue. Could the two issues be related? Could high voltage have damaged the horn circuitry? Remember, when the horn started sounding a solid tone my ultra-sounder made a loud spinning sound and the indicator light stopped working. In addition, the tachometer jumping really high but the motor actually stayed constant. Yes, the motor was running. The trim, volt, and water gauges all appear okay. The dashboard instruments is wired from a "6-way 12V fuse block blade" which is wired from battery switch and then from the Duralast Marine starting battery.

1. What is suppose to regulate voltage on my 1989 Johnson 60hp VRO motor?
2. What can I eliminate as NOT being the issue; Power Pack, Stator, Battery,...?
3. I had excessive voltage climb after replacing the rectifier. Should I try a non-OEM regulator rectifier? Such as Amazon; CDI Electronics 193-3408 Johnson/Evinrude Regulated Rectifier - 2/3/4/6 Cyl (1969-2000)

I don't want to replace a $90 horn only to have it fried.

I greatly appreciate your input/suggestions.

I forgot to add that the voltage climbs when using either battery 1 or battery 2. The voltage climb was observed on both dash volt meter and a DMM attached to the battery. I have not tried testing voltage at the solenoid.

 

[dingbat]

I'm going to double check resistance/continuity of the tan wire

The issues are related. Something happened that introduced a power surge into the system when you switched to battery two.

The electronics are simple enough but you need a detailed schematic or a OEM manual to work through things.

The constant alarm is a know failure mode of the horn


Two or three wire horn?
Tan and purple or tan, purple and black?

If the downstream sensors and circuits are operational you should have no continuity to ground on the tan wire.

Easily enough to check. Pull tan from horn and check for continuity to ground. Should be open.

If a 3 wire horn, removing tan wire should stop the horn. If it continues the horn is blown

 

[boatgreg]

I finally had a little sun light after work and had a chance to look at my boat.

The horn on my boat has three wires (Red, Tan, and a short black wire screwed to the remote casing). With the tan wire removed from the horn and with the key in the accessory position the horn continued. Does this confirm that the $90 switch is bad? If so, I think it makes sense to hold off replacing it until I figure out why I have high voltage. What do you suggest I look at next?

Also, today I pressed the trim switch and heard an electrical short sound, THIS TIME, I saw it spark to the right of the bracket holding the two relays. While lightly pulling a black wire in that area to check wires for fraid wire I discovered two black wires held together by a short screw and nut. When I pulled both wires out the nut popped off and the short bolt disappeared. Unbelievable that a nut was hanging by a short "thread". Remember, when my alarm issue started I was either pressing the trim switch or rotating the battery switch, either way both were done in a very close period of time. I attached the ring terminals of the black wires to the top bolt of the relay bracket, they wouldn't reach the rectifier. The boat started really good and I ran it for about 4-5min until voltage climbed to 16V. So, I'm not sure if this is another variable in the root cause of my problem.

Let me mud the water a little more. It is possible that I had the motor running, which was charging my new marine starting battery while also at the same time, having the smart charger connected to AC. That isn't an idea condition and I'm not sure I did.

Who's laughing and shaking their head at me? What do you suggest I look at next?

 

[dingbat]

Does this confirm that the $90 switch is bad?

Yes

The boat started really good and I ran it for about 4-5min until voltage climbed to 16V. So, I'm not sure if this is another variable in the root cause of my problem.

Still not sure... did you or did you not have the over voltage condition prior to you making your wiring modification?

Your "about 4-5min until voltage climbed to 16V" is interesting.
Perfectly normal behavior for an unregulated system. Current drops as battery is replenished at which time...current drops, voltage goes up.

I don't understand why the two black wires would "spark" if they where grounds unless your "floating" ground somewhere in the system. I assume you tied the two battery grounds to the starting battery along with the engine ground?

My suggestion is by-pass the switch you installed and connect the motor cables directly to a known good battery to see if the problem goes away.

It is possible that I had the motor running, which was charging my new marine starting battery while also at the same time, having the smart charger connected to AC.

Good way to unknowingly fry something

 

[boatgreg]

This morning I again double checked the wiring of the new switch. I disconnected both positive and negative wires at battery terminal block. I did continuity checks between pos and neg on the switch as I reconnected each wire to the terminal block. Lengthy process. Everything was good. This was done with the battery disconnected. I feel comfortable with the switch wiring and crossed wires at switch/terminal block.

I'm still ruling out whether or not the horn is good or bad. In addition to my last post I found the following interesting. Please help! When my multi meter is set to diode/continuity mode I assume a low voltage is sent from the meter. The reason I ask is because if I connect + to the horn violet wire and - to remote chasis ground the horn emits a low volume tone. Is this typical performance or is this another indication that the horn could be bad? Sorry for jumping back to the horn again.

Voltage - No, I did not have a voltage problem prior to new switch and new battery.

Ground - I agree that the two wires seemed to be a floating ground. However, I did check continuity between those to wires (connected together) and ground and there was no continuity....not connected to ground. So, thats why I connected it to ground on the trim relay bracket. Hopefully it did the right thing. Performance of voltage climb was the same on both batteries.

Knowing I can return parts I did order and have received a Regulating Rectifier made by CDI. I really do not want to connect it unless all other options have been explored to resolve climbing voltage. This Reg/Rect has five wires compared to three on EOM. It appear the fourth wire is simply ground and the other wire connects to where the tachometer connects.

Yesterday I ran the motor off two separate batteries and got the same results - slow climb in voltage.

 

[dingbat]

This morning I again double checked the wiring of the new switch. I disconnected both positive and negative wires at battery terminal block. I did continuity checks between pos and neg on the switch as I reconnected each wire to the terminal block. Lengthy process.

The are three connections on a battery switch:
1. Battery 1 input (positive)
2. Battery 2 input (positive)
3. Power out (to distribution panel)

There is no negative on the switch.
You tie the two batteries together with a ground cable then connect the engine ground to the same ground terminal. Two lugs on one terminal.

If you didn’t setup a bus bar for grounds, you tie the ground for the distribution panel to one of the battery terminals as well.

When my multi meter is set to diode/continuity mode I assume a low voltage is sent from the meter. The reason I ask is because if I connect + to the horn violet wire and - to remote chasis ground the horn emits a low volume tone. Is this typical performance or is this another indication that the horn could be bad

The horn is shorted. The circuit should read open. The tan wire is switching ground

Voltage - No, I did not have a voltage problem prior to new switch and new battery.

Everything I’ve read on your motor suggests it’s a unregulated system.

Perhaps the old battery was failing. Loading down the charge from the motor somehow so you didn’t notice it as much.

No clue…. I have a 30A regulated charging system on my motor. Runs ~13.6V on the gauge at helm

 

[boatgreg]

Yes, the motor is unregulated. I guess I'm at the point of switching to the regulated rectifier. If tomorrow is dry and warm enough to start up the motor then I'll let you know how things work out or when I find a resolution. I appreciate all of the support.

Here's the link to the CDI Regulator Rectifier that I will be installing unless I hear otherwise from this group. Ill be switching from 3 to 5 wire device.

CDI Electronics 193-3408 - Regulated Rectifier Johnson Evinrude

Visit MarineEngine.com for CDI Electronics 193-3408 - Regulated Rectifier Johnson Evinrude 193-3408 price, stock and delivery options to order online.

www.marineengine.com

Here's a link to parts for my Johnson 60hp

1989 Johnson J60TLCEA 60 hp Outboard Motor Parts

Lookup Johnson J60TLCEA 1989 60 hp parts by boat engine section and buy discount parts from our large online inventory.

www.marineengine.com