1989 Force 125 Bored .30 over NOT RUNNING RIGHT!

[Unforcefull Force]

Re: 1989 Force 125 Bored .30 over NOT RUNNING RIGHT!

I installed BRAND NEW: 2 CDI PACKS, STATOR, TRIGGER and a used FLYWHEEL.

I put back on the spark checkers and fired it up. It started right away with no troubles. It runs very smooth, not a single sign of anything wrong. Just a very smooth idle, it actually sounded less noisy too. The spark checkers all are a "bright and alive" purple now! I shut off the motor and removed the spark checkers so I could go out and give it a test, and also to time on the water at WOT. I left the dock at idle speed, which ran the smoothest it has ever run. No shakes on the boat at all, very strong idle. Once out of the "no wake" I hit WOT. Amazing power! Clearly a difference. I noticed that I was at 28MPH @ 4300RPM almost right away (few seconds). I decided to trim up a little bit just to see if I could squeeze a little more before I set the timing so I would have a really good A/B comparison. I trimmed up and the RPM/Speed increased a very little, but before it could go up any more the motor died/bogged down to 2800RPM. Just like it did before when the stator went bad. I went back to the dock and pulled the flywheel & stator off again. No burn marks on the stator. I ohmed each set of wires on the stator, readings were good.

Now I am not sure what is wrong.

The motor still runs great, idles great. As soon as there is an WOT load on it, it bogs / sticks at 2800RPM.

Could the stator have gone bad again, even though I am getting the correct ohm load read on each set of wires?

What else could this be?

Thanks

-Mark

 

[john from md]

Re: 1989 Force 125 Bored .30 over NOT RUNNING RIGHT!

To me, it is acting like your spark is not advancing with the throttle opening.

When you are advancing the throttle, you are also turning the trigger coil and its associated wires. You could have a wire broken within the insulation that is breaking the contact as you advance the trottle but makes the contact as the trottle is retarded.

Since it is dangerous to try to move the wires with your hand while the engine is turning, you may want to buy a wood dowl from home depot or hobby shop and have someone try to move the wires around while the engine is running. Not very scientific but it works.

 

[bowtie2440]

Re: 1989 Force 125 Bored .30 over NOT RUNNING RIGHT!

Unforcefull Force , I've been following this post since day 1 I wish I could give you advice . All I can say is I wish you luck ,you have done alot of work to that motor . Good Luck and dont give up sounds like your getting close.

 

[Unforcefull Force]

Re: 1989 Force 125 Bored .30 over NOT RUNNING RIGHT!

To me, it is acting like your spark is not advancing with the throttle opening.

When you are advancing the throttle, you are also turning the trigger coil and its associated wires. You could have a wire broken within the insulation that is breaking the contact as you advance the trottle but makes the contact as the trottle is retarded.

Since it is dangerous to try to move the wires with your hand while the engine is turning, you may want to buy a wood dowl from home depot or hobby shop and have someone try to move the wires around while the engine is running. Not very scientific but it works.

The trigger is brand new. I just double checked the wires and they are perfect. (I pulled off the flywheel and stator again). The new trigger came with a black plastic sleeve around them which allows them to "slide" during timing advance.
Since it was working fine, then the RPM just dropped all of a sudden could it be something with the fuel? I just took it back out, hit WOT and right away I got 4000RPM the it dropped back down to 2800RPM after about 2 seconds
While I was just out there I unplugged Plug #1 & 2, fired it up and hit WOT on the water like I did before (when I checked the stator the other day) and I still got the same RPM. I plugged them back onto the plugs then removed # 3 & 4, started and WOT - I STILL GOT THE SAME RPM. ??? It has to be getting sufficient spark across all 4 or there would have been a difference. Later on I will hook back up the spark checkers with a friend and have them drive the boat WOT while I look at the checkers, but I think that the spark is fine.
I?m thinking maybe coincidently that something went wrong with my fuel system?.??? I tried pumping the primer at WOT, there was no change.
It?s one thing after another?.. THIS MOTOR IS BRAND NEW NOW!!!! I think I?m losing my mind!!!!!!

-Mark

 

[john from md]

Re: 1989 Force 125 Bored .30 over NOT RUNNING RIGHT!

Mark,

If your engine was leaning out that much, you would be getting backfiring and probably preignition with the trottle open. That is why I believe it is electrical more than fuel air mixture.

Squeezing the ball won't do anything if your floats and needle valves are doing their job.

As this condition appears to be repeatable, we should be able to find the root of the problem.

There is one other thing that we haven't looked into. It is something you see more in cars than boats but it has happened and that is exhaust blockage. When a catalytic converter comes apart, one indication is lack of top end. This is because the exhaust gases are restricted and cannot exit. This causes an overly rich condition which the computer corrects for by cutting back on fuel.

If you have something flopping around in your exhaust system, could be carbon, rust, who knows what, it may be causing the problem.

This is pure speculation on my part but it is possible.

 

[Unforcefull Force]

Re: 1989 Force 125 Bored .30 over NOT RUNNING RIGHT!

Is it possible for the stator to have gone bad again, even though there are no burn marks AND I am getting a correct OHM reading between both wire sets?

-Mark

 

[john from md]

Re: 1989 Force 125 Bored .30 over NOT RUNNING RIGHT!

No, not if your meter readings are correct. Plus, you confirmed that all cylinders are firing when you pulled the plug wires off.

I just thought of another thing that will cause low power. If the bellows on the mid leg is leaking, your engine will be sucking in CO and CO2 and that will reduce your power also.

Does it lose power with the cowling removed?

 

[Unforcefull Force]

Re: 1989 Force 125 Bored .30 over NOT RUNNING RIGHT!

I just switched the trigger back to the old one and it still does the same thing.

I tried switching both CDIs to one of the old units, same thing.

I switched each coil, one at a time and the same thing.

The only thing I could not switch was the stator; my old one is burnt.

I went back out today to try my "run on two cylinders test" and the motor shut off WOT with 1 & 2 unplugged but not with 3 & 4.


It did not do this the other day.

I think that there might be something fishy going on with that stator.

-Mark


John, it does it with the cowling removed.

 

[john from md]

Re: 1989 Force 125 Bored .30 over NOT RUNNING RIGHT!

The electrical principals of how the stator works is kind of basic 101. The rotating magnet induces a current in the coil as it revolves. The current it produces is directly related to the number of coils in the stator. The resistance of the wire is a known value related to the number of coils. If you ohm out the coils, and you get the resistance range specified, then you must get current flow.

As I recall, you said you ohmed out the stator and it was ok. I will admit that your test seems to indicate that the #1 & #2 CDI units are not firing but, if the stator resistance is good, this shouldn't be happening. I suggest you do a continuity check on all the wires going to the forward CDI unit as you may have a broken wire in the harness.

 

[Unforcefull Force]

Re: 1989 Force 125 Bored .30 over NOT RUNNING RIGHT!

New motor time... I'm running out of fuel to keep this going.

I switched EVERYTHING out AGAIN, except for the stator. (few posts ago, this was today)... If it was a wire I would not get spark at idle but lose at WOT and it would not be doing the same thing with all different parts. Under a load it's starving somewhere. It's really strange, every time I go down and work on the boat, the very first time I take it out to test it, it will go past 4000RPM for 1-2 seconds ((sighs)). Then, every time thereafter, it will not exceed 2800RPM.

I am really running out of patients. I might buy a used motor. I really want a new 150 4 stroke but I just don't think it's feasible to spend 12,000 on a new motor!! I'm praying to the FORCE GODS and if they don't answer...RIP Force 125. Too much time and money is being wasted on this. I boat because it is relaxing; to me there isn't anything on this planet like being out on the free waters. After this season, it has created more stress than relax time. With the stress:relax-time ratio in mind, the season is almost over and I am starting to wish I would have bought a different motor instead of throwing money at the Force. It is so much better when you can build something from the ground up, and to know and understand how and why it works the way it does, which was one of the reasons I wanted to rebuild, even though I was told numerous times not to. I am not one to give up, but pretty soon I might throw in the towel on this one and start over with a new/used motor. I hope I can figure it out though.

-Mark

 

[john from md]

Re: 1989 Force 125 Bored .30 over NOT RUNNING RIGHT!

This is a stretch but, since your engine is already overbored, I am wondering if it is expanding causing you to lose compression. If for some reason, the wrong rings were installed, theoretically, it is possible.

Granted, these raw water cooled engines run pretty cool but it's worth a shot. Run it hot and then check your compression. Hell, what to you have to lose besides your mind.

 

[shytownborn]

Re: 1989 Force 125 Bored .30 over NOT RUNNING RIGHT!

fuel

 

[92rslt1]

Re: 1989 Force 125 Bored .30 over NOT RUNNING RIGHT!

Whats your float level look like? Have you checked that?

 

[Unforcefull Force]

Re: 1989 Force 125 Bored .30 over NOT RUNNING RIGHT!

Both carbs are perfect. They were both recently soaked overnight and rebuilt. If it could be purchased new in 2010, those parts are on the carburetors. That is a small problem I have when I do something. I usually go a little overboard. Jets are new too. I actually have a few different sets of jets, drilled to different sizes. The end result was re-installing the factory recommended jets for my standard elevation. (I thought I was at a loss of fuel originally because of the overbore). I will still double check the floats tomorrow just to make sure. I will also run the motor hot and check the compression again. Like John said, at thins point what do I have to loose?

Fuel, I tried pinching shut the main fuel line with vise-grips just to see how it runs if I starve it for fuel, it ran like it does now minus 800RPM.

I installed 2 fuel pumps in the last 6 months, first after the rebuild, it needed it a little (on a 1 to 10 scale it was a 6) , the second time was me overkilling again "just to make sure something didn't go wrong with the first one I installed"

I AM OPEN FOR ANY SUGGESTIONS! Come one come all!

-Mark

 

[92rslt1]

Re: 1989 Force 125 Bored .30 over NOT RUNNING RIGHT!

Both carbs are perfect. They were both recently soaked overnight and rebuilt. If it could be purchased new in 2010, those parts are on the carburetors. That is a small problem I have when I do something. I usually go a little overboard. Jets are new too. I actually have a few different sets of jets, drilled to different sizes. The end result was re-installing the factory recommended jets for my standard elevation. (I thought I was at a loss of fuel originally because of the overbore). I will still double check the floats tomorrow just to make sure. I will also run the motor hot and check the compression again. Like John said, at thins point what do I have to loose?

Fuel, I tried pinching shut the main fuel line with vise-grips just to see how it runs if I starve it for fuel, it ran like it does now minus 800RPM.

I installed 2 fuel pumps in the last 6 months, first after the rebuild, it needed it a little (on a 1 to 10 scale it was a 6) , the second time was me overkilling again "just to make sure something didn't go wrong with the first one I installed"

I AM OPEN FOR ANY SUGGESTIONS! Come one come all!

-Mark

You need to check the float height when the carbs are filled. Just because the carb part was replaced doesn't mean the gap is correct.

 

[92rslt1]

Re: 1989 Force 125 Bored .30 over NOT RUNNING RIGHT!

also dont starve the motor for fuel intentionally because your also starving it for oil when you do that. It literally only takes one good lean run for those needle bearings to damage.


the fuel level should be at the same height as the gasket that separates the float bowl from the upper half of the carburetor body or very slightly below it. consult the manual to be sure.

 

[maxum_man]

Re: 1989 Force 125 Bored .30 over NOT RUNNING RIGHT!

I installed BRAND NEW: 2 CDI PACKS, STATOR, TRIGGER and a used FLYWHEEL.

I put back on the spark checkers and fired it up. It started right away with no troubles. It runs very smooth, not a single sign of anything wrong. Just a very smooth idle, it actually sounded less noisy too. The spark checkers all are a "bright and alive" purple now! I shut off the motor and removed the spark checkers so I could go out and give it a test, and also to time on the water at WOT. I left the dock at idle speed, which ran the smoothest it has ever run. No shakes on the boat at all, very strong idle. Once out of the "no wake" I hit WOT. Amazing power! Clearly a difference. I noticed that I was at 28MPH @ 4300RPM almost right away (few seconds). I decided to trim up a little bit just to see if I could squeeze a little more before I set the timing so I would have a really good A/B comparison. I trimmed up and the RPM/Speed increased a very little, but before it could go up any more the motor died/bogged down to 2800RPM. Just like it did before when the stator went bad. I went back to the dock and pulled the flywheel & stator off again. No burn marks on the stator. I ohmed each set of wires on the stator, readings were good.

Now I am not sure what is wrong.

The motor still runs great, idles great. As soon as there is an WOT load on it, it bogs / sticks at 2800RPM.

Could the stator have gone bad again, even though I am getting the correct ohm load read on each set of wires?

What else could this be?

Thanks

-Mark

I had this problem as well...Mine would go to 2500 RPM and bog down. I spent $1100 on a new ignition system only to find out that the vent hose from the top Carb going to the Flame arrestor was stopped up. Apparently, this was "Vapor locking", for lack of better words, the top carb. It would fire right up and run good up until I hit 2500 rpms and would not go any higher. I had finally took it to a Mechanic and he ran it up to where it bogs and pulled that hose off for a second and she took right off!! So...you might check that if you have them on your carbs. Just a thought!

Bryan

 

[Unforcefull Force]

Re: 1989 Force 125 Bored .30 over NOT RUNNING RIGHT!

I went down to the boat after work today and started going to town.

First I removed all 4 spark plugs and checked the compression again.

150PSI across all 4 still.

I re-installed the plugs and fired it up. Oddly enough it was running worse than it was when I left it the other day!!

I was having a hard time keeping it running, as if one or two cylinders were not firing. I turned it off, installed all 4 spark checkers and fired it up again.

Now... OUT OF NOWHERE?, I am getting EXTREMELY weak/dull color spark on cylinders #2 & #4. The spark could barely be seen. Just the other day they were all "bright and alive". At this point I am very fickle .

While the motor was still hot from running I removed the plugs again to check the compression as per John's idea.

The results: 150 on all BUT # 3, which was now 145. Not a big difference, but a difference none the less.

SoO. Back to my spark problem. I removed all of the wires & ohmed out the stator and trigger again. They were okay so I decided to switch out the CDI packs, one at a time. I installed one of my old packs again and surprisingly, this time I got a change on the first swap. The dull spark moved from #4 to #3. Which tells me that, not only is the new pack bad, but something must be wrong with the old pack too. I hooked back up the new one and switched pack #2. The "good" spark switched coils on that on as well(from #1 to #2). I switched the new pack back on that one again and the weak spark switched again too.

(lol -I could make a custom "pack rack" that holds 4 CDI packs to utilize the "good circuit" on all 4 packs)! I wouldn't really do this, I have a warranty on my packs, but it crossed my mind!

In this little experiment I learned that it is possible to have a WEAK pack, that produces WEAK spark. On either one or both coils (per pack). I was told by a few people that packs will either work or they won't. So I'm guessing that they are wrong..??..

So I have two NEW CDI packs that are not presently producing a consistent spark. However, just the other day they were working (at idle) just fine.

What really sucks is, well - I don't know if this has been my problem (2 defective CDI packs) OR if this is a new problem that has just arose because of something else being broken.

They are after market CDI Packs, but the company gets pretty great reviews so I don't know. I will contact them tomorrow to get them replaced.

My next step, I WAS going to Mark TDC on the flywheel for 2, 3, & 4 with some tire chalk. Then I was going to have someone drive the boat while I compare the difference with a timing light between all 4 at WOT to see if there is consistency. This would have ruled out weather or not the problem is electrical. I never made it that far though, hence the "confusing CDI packs"

I'll keep you all posted. Still keep the posts coming though. I appreciate EVERY single one!

-Mark

 

[XateEsix]

Re: 1989 Force 125 Bored .30 over NOT RUNNING RIGHT!

Mark,

I really am sorry to hear about your difficulties with that engine.

I am not an expert on outboards though I am rebuilding an earlier version of that motor right now.

That being said I used to run a garage and was an expert in engine tuning.

After reading your thread I have a few comments I would like to make that may help you get to the bottom of the situation.

First of all when a spark plug is fired the more fuel/air mixture and the higher the compression the higher the resistance to the spark or in other words more energy that is required to make the spark and the higher the load on the coils and triggers.
Also the faster the motor runs the higher the compression and fule/air mixture which also increases the resistance to the spark.

Now another thing to consider is that engines can be picky about which spark plug you are running. Sometimes when rebuilding an engine it s nessesary to raise or lower the "temp" or resistance of the spark plug. For instance with Bosch spark plugs you will have a series that runs from HR7P to HR9P with the 7 being the coldest and the 9 being the hottest. We often had to run colder than spec plugs on Chrysler engines for them to run well. Champion plugs which I believe are the recommended plugs for Chrysler/Force outboards is one of the coldest running plugs on the market.
You may want to look at running a different plug or the stock one i fyou are not.

Finally when the resistance increases on an ignition circuit all kinds of things can happen. For instance connections that are weak or have poor contact will fail or wires that have excess resistance will find a new route to disperse the energy like via a short or I have even seen it go right through shielding, carbon can provide just enough conductivity for electricity to cross a barrier.
You see it sometimes inside distributer caps when spark has been arcing under load as fine black lines around the cap.
I have been shocked a few times by the spark jumping right under/through the cap and even the spark plug boots.

I believe you mentioned that you found wires that had melted shielding, those wires should be replaced. Once wires are over heated they almost never perform as they should.

Also if any wire looks old, dirty, oily, cracked or somewhat rigid replace them. These tasks only take a little time and a little money and can often solve problems like you are experiancing.

I once came across a 1952 Metro that hadn't run in a decade. The owner had spent over a grand on mechanics trying to repair it with not luck. It took less than an hour and turned out to be the trigger wire going from the points to the coil. it was broken inside of the boot. Looked perfect and passed an ohm test but failed under load.

Good luck!

J

 

[john from md]

Re: 1989 Force 125 Bored .30 over NOT RUNNING RIGHT!

Mark,

Xate appears to have good knowledge of four stroke engine operation. What he said about compression causing resistance to spark is true. And, on four stroke, engines it is standard practice to change heat ranges on plugs.

DO NOT DO THIS ON YOUR FORCE TWO STROKE. As has been said on numerous occasions, these engines have a narrow spark plug range because they burn hot at WOT. Changing heat ranges or to L electrode plugs is a sure way to burn a hole in a piston.

Now, since your spark seems to be intermittantly weak, I once again want to go back to wire connections and grounds. All it takes is a little oxydation and resistance goes up. When your resistance goes up, your electrical power available goes down.

I would say to give all of the connectors, male and female, and grounds a good cleaning and then a couple of coats of WD40. That will dry and prevent moisture from getting back to the clean metal.

Just for comparison, I put my Harbor Freight spark tester on my 85hp to see what color the spark is. It is a purple spark, not blue such as you get from a spark plug tip. Also, at 1200 rpm on the muffs, the sparks are jumping around like a welding rod. I just wanted to give you something to compare.

One more thing before I shut up. I have each of my coils grounded individually to the block using 14ga wire. This is because over the years, I have found that good grounds are a necessity on outboards especially when operating in salt water.