1969 Evinrude 25hp 25903D points issue

[Kawaiikeno]

Hi While trying to fix an issue with the motor just stalling at idle I've ran across something I need help with. I purchased a sierra tuneup kit 18-5002 after installation of just the top set and checking with a timing light the timing is aprox. 3/4" out of the two marks to the left of the marks. After comparing the old set with the new ones I found the distance from the center post to the rub block on the new sierra points is about .050" longer, I then purchased a set of OEM evinrude points #0580148 from the local dealer that are listed as the correct points they are seemingly the correct length but the plastic bushing in the points is too small to fit over the post.
What I've done to get it working is to replace the small bushing in the OEM points for the larger one from the sierra set. This has returned the timing between the lines spec at .020"point gap.
But has done nothing for the intermittent stalling so far for this issue I've replaced the coils, plug wires, points, condensers and had the carb apart several times.
I'm open to your thoughts and advice
Thanks Mike

 

[F_R]

And there we have another report on the crappy points being sold these days.

 

[racerone]

What other trouble shooting was done ?----Post the compression test results here.

 

[Kawaiikeno]

Compression is 120psi on both cylinders
new fuel pump, fuel pressure is higher than spec. at 3-3.25 after long idle
plugs currently champion J8c (one step hotter)
Reeds inspected (good) new gaskets
No sign of top seal leaking.
haven't removed powerhead to check lower seal

Carburetor has been soaked and completely gone through welch plugs removed all passages and jets gone through with welding tip cleaner and compressed air, float set to spec.
throttle shaft doesn't have significant wear
Fixed high speed jet ,low speed needle turned in to first sign of cough then opened aprox. 1/16 turn
idle spec is 650rpm in gear Very hard to get it that low, best low idle at 725-750rpm.

Engine will idle smooth at 725-750 for several minutes then act like the kill switch was pushed, It will restart and idle smooth with no other input other than hitting the start button.
Kill circuit was completely unhooked at the points this made no difference.
Dealer stated there was a temperature related bulletin about installing a rubber plug in the thermostat bypass I bought the parts but haven't done it yet.
This is all on a very low hour motor that didn't appear to have ever had a wrench on it
Thanks Mike

 

[racerone]

Is the throttle plate adjusted to open at the correct time.----Throttle pate must be closed to idle properly.------If throttle plate opens too early the motor will stall most times.

 

[Kawaiikeno]

I forgot to add I've taken off the magneto plate and inspected all the wires and tested the.
Mike

 

[Kawaiikeno]

the throttle is set to just move at the second mark(looking at it straight on it would be the mark on the left
Mike

 

[Kawaiikeno]

I need some ideas guys! If it was an easy one I wouldn't have needed help
Thanks Mike

 

[McGR]

Here's a few ideas...

Have you tried partially blocking the carb throat with a rag or partial choke application to see if improves things? Maybe you could remove the kill circuit wires and see if anything improves? Are the coils mounted and adjusted properly. Some of todays import coils defy proper adjustment (as do today's points) and need some re-engineering to work properly.

Just some thoughts...

 

[Kawaiikeno]

I have tried the partial choke application and the kill circuit was disconnected at the points also with no effect. The coils are adjusted flush with the machined surface of the mounting surface.At first I thought it was fussy about running in a barrel but it's the same on a lake with a good breeze.
I have another timing plate and flywheel from an 18hp and OEM coils are coming soon. I make my own plug wires and solder the plug ends.
I have 2 of the adjustable gap spark checkers and if i remember correctly they both will jump about the same. One thing worth noting is the top set of points isn't as responsive to changes in gap to the timing mark as the lower set. At this time the lower point set is centered between the timing marks while the top set is kissing the left side but still between the marks.

I'd be very interested in hearing from someone in the know on the point issue. Like I said in the first post there is a difference in both length and post size between the sierra and evinrude points the sierra being longer and the evinrude not fitting on the post.
Thanks Mike

 

[racerone]

Part # of the sierra points ?----I know the factory part # for the 69 as I used to install 2 or 3 sets a week back in 68 / 69 / 70 at Johnson dealer.----Run with a timing light and see if spark fails when it dies.------This issue should not be hard to figure out I think.

 

[Kawaiikeno]

I might have found the issue with the stalling, I decided to start from scratch with the ignition testing. With a spark tester on both cylinders, what starts out with both cylinders being able to jump a .35 gap the top cylinder rapidly drops to .125 after about 20 seconds.
I have new coils ordered but in the mean time I might build up the spare plate I have.
I'm still not sure what to do about the points issue
Mike

 

[racerone]

Roll up some 320 paper.----Clean up the bore on factory points.----Or inspect posts on your mag plate for a burr.

 

[Kawaiikeno]

Right now I have it torn apart, but before I did use the timing light but was unable to tell the difference the top cylinder has spark but it gets really weak after a few seconds.
My timing light is a powered unit with adjustable advance so I don't think it cares how powerful the spark is as long as it's there.
My normal spark test is just to bump the starter and verify there is spark on each cylinder not an extended test I just happened to test longer because I'm having problems or I wouldn't have caught it.
Right now I'm trying to work through the points issue, my local dealer said they first saw this issue about a year ago.

My points issue is Sierra points have the correct size bushing but the rub block is extended .070" so when I verify the timing it is way off and requires the point gap to be opened to .032" to have timing fall between the marks.
The Evinrude points are the correct length but the bushing is too small to fit over the pivot pin.
The OD of the bushing is the same size so for now I just pressed out the bushing from the Evinrude points and pressed in a bushing from an old set that is the correct size. But it will get expensive having to but 2 sets of points on every18hp to ? size motor just to make 1 good set
Mike

 

[Kawaiikeno]

I don't have a set of pin gauges but near as I can measure with drills and a calipers the post is .1875 and the points are .1705

 

[Crosbyman]

try to adjust the points openning as per this video to ensure plugs firing at the exaxt time. the gap is more or less academeic if the points "open" and fire the plugs at the proper time.

btw "new" condensers could be "bad" condensers and old condensers could be "good" condensers . You never kow till you test them . I have purchased new ones that failed . Condensers not only protect the points from arcing but they also have a direct impact on sparks

 

[tphoyt]

I know I have replaced condensers due to a request and ended up put the old ones back in because the new were no good.
It’s definitely worth looking into if you replaced them. I can’t remember if you said you did or not. Bad case of CRS this morning.

 

[F_R]

I don't have a set of pin gauges but near as I can measure with drills and a calipers the post is .1875 and the points are .1705

Wow, .017 interferance fit? Pretty obvious the points are junk.

 

[racerone]

Hard to believe stuff like that leaves the factory these days.

 

[Kawaiikeno]

I made up a different magneto plate with different coils(black instead of Green), points, condensers and wires. In testing the spark with a gap tester both cylinders will jump .45 before they start to miss with no fade out. I don't have the stalling issue as before but the motor will still not idle down as it should.
The lowest I can set the idle is to be lining up with the link and sync marks The timing on both cylinders is as close to centered between the timing marks as possible. this is with Evinrude 580148 points with the bushings changed.
I'm still waiting on the NOS Evinrude coils so I'm also going to look for 2 sets of NOS Evinrude points.
Hats off to my local dealer Bay Outboard & Marine in Saginaw, Mi for all the help as they have been working on this points issue for over a year.
I've actually made a block and punches to change bushings and a test block to set up/ test points.
The points on the left are a match for the points that were in the motor Evinrude #580148 except as purchased they have the wrong size bushing.
Points on the right are from the Sierra tune up Kit 18-5002 and as you can see are .070" longer