1966 Johnson 6hp magneto timing issues

[danielvanalphen]

I've restored a 1966 Johnson 6hp, CDL-23E recently and have an issue with the magneto timing. I've replaced almost everything, fuel lines, thermostat, impeller, bar the fuel pump. I have also replaced everything within the magneto, so OEM condensers, points, coils, and 7mm copper core ignition wire with new spark plugs. The issue I am having however is to do with the timing. I set the points using a multimeter at he point marked on the fly wheel and the magneto plate, as so the points open at the exact time. This gives me perfect strong purple spark when I test it with just the spark plug and with a spark tester. However the issue is when I try to then run the engine. its hard to start and will only run for a couple of seconds, it also sounds like knocking which to me indicated early combustion, it also runs extremely slow for the time it does run. like way slower than I turn the flywheel to start it. what also confuses me is that the engine ran during the summer but it ran great when the points were set at .20 of a millimeter which is a very small gap compared to the .020 of an inch that is stated. The only thing that I can understand from this is the fact that setting it at a considerably smaller gap is causing the timing to advance and combustion to happen closer to TDC. I'm just so confused as to why it wont run or run correctly when the points correctly unless I've completely missed something
.20 millimeter is 0.00787402 of an inch according to google. in Europe we use the superior means of measurement
Thanks for any help in advance this has been causing me trouble for months and cant get my head around it

 

[racerone]

Points are set with the meter to open at the correct time.----It is relative to rotation of flywheel and coils.-----Timing of spark relative to position of piston is all factory set by linkages with no adjustment needed.-----So knocking might be the coils rubbing on the flywheel.------So set the coils in the proper place.----Set points to 0.020" (.5 mm ) or with meter.-----Should run very well if rest of motor is in good condition !----Not sure why anyone would come up with a 0.007" setting.----Note --This magneto was first installed in 1950 and used up until about 1990 on some motors.----Used on 1.5 HP to 40 HP models.------It is a reliable system.------Just installed new new ignition system on a 1959 Evinrude 5.5 HP and great spark on it.-----Have many of those 6 HP models on hand for rebuild / parts.

 

[F_R]

Cam upside down?????

 

[danielvanalphen]

Cam upside down?????

no the cam has the word top imprinted on it so its not that anyway

 

[danielvanalphen]

Points are set with the meter to open at the correct time.----It is relative to rotation of flywheel and coils.-----Timing of spark relative to position of piston is all factory set by linkages with no adjustment needed.-----So knocking might be the coils rubbing on the flywheel.------So set the coils in the proper place.----Set points to 0.020" (.5 mm ) or with meter.-----Should run very well if rest of motor is in good condition !----Not sure why anyone would come up with a 0.007" setting.----Note --This magneto was first installed in 1950 and used up until about 1990 on some motors.----Used on 1.5 HP to 40 HP models.------It is a reliable system.------Just installed new new ignition system on a 1959 Evinrude 5.5 HP and great spark on it.-----Have many of those 6 HP models on hand for rebuild / parts.

its not the coils rubbing on the flywheel, ive made sure of that. they are aligned with the plate that it sits on. it makes perfect spark but wont start and when it does runs at only a couple of hundred rpm for a few seconds

 

[Crosbyman]

is this how you set the points..?? . .020 is at the high point of the cam not the 2 bar markings see video.

points must just open at the markings

then Ithink you will have to look elsewhere

 

[racerone]

Sorry ------ I can not see , feel or hear your motor.---------Sounds like the carburetor is plugged.-----Take it apart again ?-----In the very bottom of the float bowl you will find the high speed jet.----Way inside the drain plug.-----All the fuel must go through it.-----It is about 15 mm long with a 1/4-20NC thread.----Similar to a 6 mm thread.-----The high speed jet has been missed by numerous folks in the past !

 

[flyingscott]

Spark plug wires on the wrong plug?

 

[racerone]

He says it runs for a few seconds and quits !

 

[Crosbyman]

basic carb problems.. your carb does not have the lower knob but inside is the HS jet to clean !

 

[racerone]

I think the owner needs to find the high speed jet.-----Not shown in above picture.

 

[Crosbyman]

#50 ? orifice

odd ......cdl 22 and cdl 24 show up but no cdl-23 at the parts place... was there a cdl 23 made

 

[racerone]

The Evinrude models show a short and long shaft for 1966.-----So of course they made those in Johnson as well.----Some internet parts places do have errors and omissions !

 

[440roadrunner]

I can't answer your question, but.....

Smaller points gap RETARDS timing
I believe wholly in setting points to TIMING and not gap. After being timed, they should "be" about .020". You can also double check time with an automotive strobe timing light. Just use a battery, and might help to enlist someone to yank the pull start. Paint or chalk the marks for visibility. It matters not where there the throttle is set, ans the mag marks are relative.

Check that the bushing in the mag is not worn excessively where it rotates on the boss on top on engine

I have no idea what happens if you wire the wrong coil to the wrong points--you might check that.

So far as the carb, make sure it's clean and look at part no.40--that's a cork or neoprene gasket that must sit down on the boss in the bottom of the bowl--otherwise, fuel will bypass the main high speed jet and it will run incredibly rich

You can "rough check" timing just be advancing throttle to full speed and look that mag plate is "against the stop" on the block.

I would suspect gummy gum in the low speed circuit, or maybe the low speed needle is just not out far enough.

 

[danielvanalphen]

I can't answer your question, but.....

Smaller points gap RETARDS timing
I believe wholly in setting points to TIMING and not gap. After being timed, they should "be" about .020". You can also double check time with an automotive strobe timing light. Just use a battery, and might help to enlist someone to yank the pull start. Paint or chalk the marks for visibility. It matters not where there the throttle is set, ans the mag marks are relative.

Check that the bushing in the mag is not worn excessively where it rotates on the boss on top on engine

I have no idea what happens if you wire the wrong coil to the wrong points--you might check that.

So far as the carb, make sure it's clean and look at part no.40--that's a cork or neoprene gasket that must sit down on the boss in the bottom of the bowl--otherwise, fuel will bypass the main high speed jet and it will run incredibly rich

You can "rough check" timing just be advancing throttle to full speed and look that mag plate is "against the stop" on the block.

I would suspect gummy gum in the low speed circuit, or maybe the low speed needle is just not out far enough.

I rebuilt the carb 6 months ago with new parts and cleaned it out then and then re cleaned in about a week ago after it sitting during the winter, however I never took out the welch plug at the top of the carb where the low speed jet is, as youve said I think ill take out the welch plug and make sure its cleaned completely and that no gunk has built up over the winter. Thanks for the help

 

[danielvanalphen]

I think the owner needs to find the high speed jet.-----Not shown in above picture.

I rebuilt the carb and soaked and cleaned it 6 months ago and recently cleaned it again but ill take out the welch plug and make sure nothing is blocking the slow speed jet, thanks for the help

 

[racerone]

Points are not used to change timing !-----This thing is a simple magneto and points are timed to get the STRONGEST spark.-----The timing of spark before or after TDC looks after itself with the linkages.---- The tip of the slow speed needle broken off by chance.----It is known to happen on those carburetors.-----The results of a compression test should be posted.-----The original head gasket has been replaced with a much better one.----Did you replace it ?

 

[danielvanalphen]

Points are not used to change timing !-----This thing is a simple magneto and points are timed to get the STRONGEST spark.-----The timing of spark before or after TDC looks after itself with the linkages.---- The tip of the slow speed needle broken off by chance.----It is known to happen on those carburetors.-----The results of a compression test should be posted.-----The original head gasket has been replaced with a much better one.----Did you replace it ?

the slow speed needle is all intact and is not blunt at the point. when talking about the linkage are you referring to the rotation of the armature plate? I don't have the exact number of the compression test I did but i do remember it to be within the required ranges for both cylinders. The original head gasket is still on the engine and has not been replaced.

 

[danielvanalphen]

Points are not used to change timing !-----This thing is a simple magneto and points are timed to get the STRONGEST spark.-----The timing of spark before or after TDC looks after itself with the linkages.---- The tip of the slow speed needle broken off by chance.----It is known to happen on those carburetors.-----The results of a compression test should be posted.-----The original head gasket has been replaced with a much better one.----Did you replace it ?

I also thought the the time in which the points opened was the time that the spark would be sent to the plugs and thus, the time that the plugs would spark is directly corelated to the time that the points opened. but now that I think about it I'm understanding what you're saying with the strongest spark,

 

[racerone]

The points always open with the mark on the flywheel between the 2 vertical marks on the magneto plate.-----This is the timing of the magnets and heels of the coil !-----Timing relative to piston position is fixed by the linkage that rotates the magneto plate.-----No user adjustment required.-----It is so simple.