12 foot motor

[ob]

Re: 12 foot motor

Nathan ,with all due respect ,the owner in this case was posing a question as to whether or not to stay within the plackard HP rating or whether it would be OK to exceed it slightly.The problem with exceeding what the manufacturer(not the coast guard)deemed as a maximum HP rating is that there can be no specific definition as to where the excess ends.That's where giving the proper advise to the proper person comes in.Case in point:I've got an FZR 1000 Yamaha.You come up and ask me if you can try it out and then follow with questions like ,"is it hard to steer?","how do you shift the gears?","where is the brake?"etc....This is a person that I will scrutinize closely before letting them attempt to operate something that they obviously are not thoroughly familiar with.Same scenario here,..."you" wouldn't pose the question as to the HP acceptibility on a 12 ft. boat,however,"Ping "did.So,let everyone give their opinion on the matter and don't twist the situation around and make it look as if JB somehow or others are offering rediculously unsound advice.<br />So you say a 30 hp is too much but a 15 hp isn't.Are these your professional guidelines?Maybe you could explain to the guy that thinks "you're" full of it and wants to hang a 30 hp on it.Get the picture? <br /><br />Your area of specialty is operating 12 foot boats 365 days a year ,rain,snow ,or shine???????Is that a degreed profession? <br /><br />"Some of you people really #$%^&##@ me off on stuff like this"<br />Who needs the chill pill here???<br /><br />Ping ,I personally don't know what the laws are in Jersey governing the HP ratings on boat hulls.Perhaps someone will respond from your area.Good luck.

 

[Chinewalker]

Re: 12 foot motor

As someone who has on occasion over-powered my 12-foot Duranautic, I can attest to the fact that even a marginal power increase over the rating can become a bit squirrely. But as the old saying goes, it only goes as fast as you turn the throttle. When conditions are right, I have been known to run my old Merc Hurrican (approx. 18hp) on my 12-foot, 120 lb. Duranautic for s**ts & grins. It's not for the faint of heart. 33mph on a GPS in a 12-foot tin can is how I got my nickname - but you know what - it was fun! It was under relatively controlled conditions - calm water, minimal traffic. Would I run that motor (or similar power) every day? No way. <br /><br />I've also piloted 11-foot boats with 40hp engines - it can be done with relaitve safety if the boat is built to handle it. Think Stock Outboard hydroplanes. There again - relatively controlled conditions, plus several safety measures in place - kill switch, helmet, lifejacket etc.<br /><br />Somewhat lost in the discussion is the fact that the 15hp 4-stroke weighs in considerably more than a 9.9hp motor of the period in which the boat was originally built and rated. Keep that in mind when making your decision. By the sound of it, this boat will rarely, if ever, be run with a load of nothing but the operator and fuel. It'll likely have operator, fuel, passenger(s), gear, cooler, etc. If the boat is solid, has a good beam and plenty of freeboard, it can probably be done safely. I haven't seen the boat, so I can't make a final judgement - that honor goes to the owner of the boat. Above all - read my tagline under my name...<br />- Scott

 

[FlyBoyMark]

Re: 12 foot motor

I guess there is a slide rule here with different applications......For some in some states it could be a problem..here in Florida you could mount a 50 HP on the boat and long as it is setup to run a 50 hp you can get away with it. In sue happy New York this whole disccussion could be a real problem 1 HP over the placard. The 100 MPH bass boat is beyond the skill level of some operators, others it's just a walk in the park...some individuals feel unconfortable above 30 MPH other above 60 MPH. ASide from the state laws, this whole discussion is based upon what OUR skill level is and placing an opinion upon it without considering what the OTHER persons capabilities are. We must stop and think for a moment that there MIGHT JUST BE SOMEONE THAT CAN DO SOMETHING BETTER THAN US. I would not recomend this setup to a 12 year old kid or to an older fisher man in his 70's that might have slower reflexes. You don't run a 100 MPH bass boat in 4' chop nor would you run this 12 boat 30 MPH even with two guys in it in 18" chop. <br /><br />Another words in MOST cases this is a subjective setup...personally I would be comfortable with a Mercury 25 HP on the boat..but the next guy, that could be very uncomfortable with anythng more than a 9.9. I have alot of experince in small lite high powered boats, those that do not it's quite disturbing. Again..this whole setup is subjective in MOST states and for some people.

 

[Zodiac CAPT JJ]

Re: 12 foot motor

I think that it is definetly up to the owner. It is his boat, he could put a 200 on it and not one of us could stop him. If he wants to put a 15 on it let him. Maybe he would like to go fast. I highly recomend a 4 cycle engine. I have seen many engines go to crap because people dont mix the gas and oil. I would get the 15 myself i definety love to go fast. my suggestin is if you get it, put a couple cinder block in it like in the bow and under the middle seats for a faster plane and a reduced chance of flipping.

 

[JB]

Re: 12 foot motor

The man asked for advice.<br /><br />He got it, along with some from folks who consider the rating meaningless and liability a joke.<br /><br />Now he has to decide for himself.

 

[Solittle]

Re: 12 foot motor

To change the tone of this just a tad - Did any of you read the title of the topic for this "discussion?"

 

[FlyBoyMark]

Re: 12 foot motor

Again JB...HERE in Florida, insurance companies will cover what ever you have BECAUSE of the state laws......In another state this would be moot and liability would be a factor. Again...SUBJECTIVE to your skill level and state laws.<br /><br />Ping is in New Jersey and wants to know what the law is there....not opinion....can anybody help?

 

[John Reynolds]

Re: 12 foot motor

Perhaps Ping could grab a phone book and look up the number of the relevant authorities that have jurisdiction in such matters and ask them. I'd bet a state agency would send her some information like a pamphlet or something. Here in Oklahoma you can e-mail the state for info.

 

[Tinkerer]

Re: 12 foot motor

Following is relevant extract from American Boat and Yacht Council article at <br /> http://www.abycinc.org/Resources/ABYC News/how_much_power_is_too_much.htm <br /><br />How does one rate a boat as to its maximum power capacity? According to the Federal Regulations, by measuring the length of the boat and the beam of the boat at the transom. These numbers in feet, when multiplied, produce a "factor." For factors up to 52, power ratings from 3 up to 20 hp are given. For boats with factors above 52 and remote steering, a simple formula (2 x factor minus 90) produces the maximum horsepower rating. This was a pretty arbitrary value, considering that it did not consider the design of hull bottom at all. the formula used was adopted from ABYC standard H-26, which had been published some years before and was in widespread use by builders of BIA (Boating Industry Association, now NMMA) certified boats. Capacity plates had been installed in some manufacturers boats since the 1930s. The ABYC standard covered boats up to 26 feet in length, while the Federal Regulations for power rating covered only boats under 20 feet.<br /><br />The formula had been evaluated extensively in the 1960s and early 1970s through a number of test sessions with dozens of planing boats of all sizes and designs at the engine manufacturers test stations in Florida and in test sights in other states using an "avoidance course" requiring the boat to be able to pass through several in-line gates, turn out around a marker set at a designated distance from the gate and out to the side of the course, then back through another set of gates on the original course line. Boat manufacturers could use the test course to evaluate their boats for safe turning characteristics at speeds up to 50 mph using the maximum power designated by the formula.<br /><br />For the boats, speeds and outboard engines of the time, this formula system seemed to work well enough for common use in rating boats for maximum power capacity. When outboards grew up to 150 horsepower and larger in the mid 1970s, the ABYC Hull Performance Committee realized that boat speeds were getting to the point (above 50 mph and up to 70+ mph) where it was virtually impossible to evaluate the power capacity on an avoidance course such as had been used. Just stretching the course out further and further to give the driver more time to make the maneuver didn’t make much sense. What was then evaluated was a "Quick Turn Test," which required that the boat be capable of making a full throttle maximum speed turn when the wheel was turned 180 degrees quickly and held, without becoming unstable or ejecting the driver. Boats that could not manage such as turn with the maximum formula horsepower installed had two options: reduce the power rating until the boat could manage such a turn at maximum speed safely, or install a warning plate in the boat stating that sudden turns above a certain speed could result in loss of control. This was a voluntary test procedure that the ABYC standard imposed for boats capable of speeds greater than 35 mph.<br /><br />Most manufacturers elected not to put in such warning plates, but down rated their boats, or, in some cases, redesigned their boat bottoms when competitors boats were found to successfully pass the Quick Turn Test with maximum rated power. The end result was the high performance outboard boats of today which generally knock the spots off the boats of 20 years ago of the same length and beam in the handling department. New bottom designs were created which, in some cases, can carry more than the formula rated power and can still execute the Quick Turn Test with good stability. The Federal Regulations, except as a means of permitting some of the small outboard "sport boats" less than 13 feet in length to rate for more power than the 10 or 15 hp given by the formula.<br /><br />Then along came the development of international standards by the ISO (International Standards Organization as loosely translated) to meet the requirements of the Recreational Craft Directive, established to make it possible to certify and CE mark a boat as complying with a set of standards recognized by the group of European countries making up the European Common Market. One of the end results was a new method for rating boats for maximum power, which may or may not be superior to that in use in the U.S., but will confront manufacturers selling boats in the European market. That will be the subject of next month’s article.

 

[rdooms]

Re: 12 foot motor

If you want a fishing boat the 9.9 is fine and the difference between it and the 15 wont be more than a couple of mph. However the placard wasnt put there for no reason and if you exceed it whatever may happen or does happen will be on your shoulders for the rest of your life . But if you want a race boat that has a big modified motor or something itll already be on your shoulders. you need to be sure what kind of boat you want. Im with Jb on this one stick to what is recommended for the hull .

 

[diggerdan17]

Re: 12 foot motor

i have a 9.9 on my 12 foot aluminum and i would say thats all the power this paticular boat would take.it can get a little scary with one person in the boat and a slight chop on the lake.on the other side of the coin,i had my wife and 3 kids in the boat the other day (probably 550 to 600 pounds all together with weight of motor and fuel tank) and i would have to say a 15 horse probably would have made a big diffrence as the 9.9 was working very hard to make half the speed that it goes with just me in the boat.but the temptation to open the 15 up when i am alone would be too much and probably just be an accident waiting to happen!<br /><br />just my 2 cents!

 

[roscoe]

Re: 12 foot motor

Zodiak, <br />"I have seen many engines go to crap because people dont mix the gas and oil. "<br /><br />These engines you have seen were obviously being run by dim witted and irresponsible people. Their actions are the proof. IF they can't read and follow the most basic of instructions, should they be allowed to be on public byways operating a vehicle and putting others at risk? These people probably never check the anti freeze, brake fluid, or oil in their cars either. Would you recommend an electric car for them? It wouldn't make a difference because they would not maintain the batteries. If they had a 4 stroker, they wouldn't check the oil or perform any other maintenace either. There are many reasons to buy a 4 stroke outboard, but this has to be the dumbest.<br /><br />I have personally used a 14' rated for 20 hp, and refused to go over 1/3 throttle with a 7.5hp on the back. It just was dangerous, and we all suspected the placard was in error. I own a 12' that is under rated at 10hp, and handles like a dream in 12" chop. Turns on a dime, busts every wave, and doesn't get tippy. So without personnally useing the boat in question, how can anyone responsibly recommend exceeding the placard rating?<br /><br />Ping, These are the guys that will have your answer. <br />Contact Information for clarification of New Jersey boating laws:<br /><br />State Police<br />Marine Law Enforcement Bureau<br />P.O. Box 7068<br />West Trenton NJ 08628-0068<br />609-882-2000 Ext. 6175<br /><br />I found info on a Bass Tournement in your state, and one of their rules is that the placard rating not be exceeded.

 

[FlyBoyMark]

Re: 12 foot motor

Roseco thats tru, if Ping is gonna phish ANY contest about 90% of them will not allow HP over C.G. plate. Grounds for disqualification....

 

[John Reynolds]

Re: 12 foot motor

I was about to say something about "faith" in the placard rating, but Roscoe pretty much covered the gist of what I was going to say. Conditions vary greatly, as do people's needs, desires, and skills. For practical reasons, the placard rating can't be more than a guidline. BUT, as I learned in the military, rules and regulations sometimes must have "easily definable limits". Take the US Air Force mustach for instance; many people thought that the regulation for trimming it even with the corners of the mouth was arbitrary and ridiculous. But it was an easily definable limits and about the only easily definable limits possible. Thus the placard rating for competitions and tourneys. it's a reasonable and easily definable limit.<br />That's good that Roscoe gave some information where Ping can GET information. That was badly needed.

 

[KenOhki]

Re: 12 foot motor

safty rateing are underated anyway, by how much is anybodys guess, No company in there right mind would say,, ok 20 is max so lets stamp 20,, No No No, that is not how the world works,, The guy says, well it will take a 30, But that is pushing design limit, so lets say 20 and cover ourselves well... That is how the real world works.<br /><br />yeah there might be some room for liability if you are overpowered, but that is a completely different issue all together. Look at cars, slap a 454 in a gremlin if ya can, No law says you cant drive that, but if you cause a accident, Then your overpowering might become ammo for the procicution, Bottom line. It is Up to the person driving the boat to drive it safely. its the drivers ultimate responcibility to determine if the boat is safe, and to drive it in a safe manor.<br />state enforced motor size huh? glad that isnt in my state, My boat dosent even have the placard. I determine how fast I go. The abiltiy of my boat to go faster doed not.

 

[likwidsukr]

Re: 12 foot motor

I have a 16' Boat with 500 hp BBF in it. Hull weighs 400lbs, Scary as hell. My Buddy has a 18' with 1250 hp BBC in it. Thay are JetBoats.....
Reason for my handle.
I also have a 10' Jon I am putting a 9.9 on it. I had to redo the Transom a bit. Added 3/4" Plywood to it. There is no Placard and I live I Florida. it is titled as a "homebuilt"

 

[Silvertip]

Re: 12 foot motor

I once owned a Sears 12 footer and powered it with a 1956 10HP Johnson. The boat was quick and dangerous. I replaced it with a newer 14 footer which was a great compromise. I also spent a great deal of time fishing with a friend who had a 16 foot Lund with a 15 HP Johnson. From those three boats I feel confident in stating that putting a 15 on a boat rated for a 10 is simply irresponsible. The point being overlooked here is the "potential" for injury to someone else due to any number of causes and it isn't necessarily related to the over power issue. Hurt someone else and you will find yourself in court. Serious injury will result is someone else owning your stuff if they determine the boat was over powered. Laughing at liability issues will have you pleading "stupid" in front of the bench. As for stuffing a 454 into a Gremlin -- go for it. You still need to make sure that vehicle is safe to operate and then your insurance company may have something to say about the rates (if they insure it at all). Liability insurance is mandated by most states. That still doesn't relieve you of the responsibility of operating the vehicle within state laws.

 

[Herra Raana # 1]

Re: 12 foot motor

8) Hi all this topic is super, I love hearing people arguing wether they have to much power or not but does anyone have pictures of the boat discussed here?

 

[likwidsukr]

Re: 12 foot motor

I once owned a Sears 12 footer and powered it with a 1956 10HP Johnson. The boat was quick and dangerous. I replaced it with a newer 14 footer which was a great compromise. I also spent a great deal of time fishing with a friend who had a 16 foot Lund with a 15 HP Johnson. From those three boats I feel confident in stating that putting a 15 on a boat rated for a 10 is simply irresponsible. The point being overlooked here is the "potential" for injury to someone else due to any number of causes and it isn't necessarily related to the over power issue. Hurt someone else and you will find yourself in court. Serious injury will result is someone else owning your stuff if they determine the boat was over powered. Laughing at liability issues will have you pleading "stupid" in front of the bench. As for stuffing a 454 into a Gremlin -- go for it. You still need to make sure that vehicle is safe to operate and then your insurance company may have something to say about the rates (if they insure it at all). Liability insurance is mandated by most states. That still doesn't relieve you of the responsibility of operating the vehicle within state laws.

Agreed and My 16' was not an easy thing to get insured. Had to take off the OT headers LOL

 

[likwidsukr]

UPDATE!!!

UPDATE!!!

Do not use a big motor(9.9) or better on this boat!! It about killed me! It was way more danderous than my drag boat!! I flipped it and it about came down on me!! Sent the boat to the scrapyard along with my truck toolbox. I about lost my life!! I was just crusing at about 6:30 in the evening, still light, going about 20 mph (GPS= 10' boat= fast too fast) I shifted my weight and bam. No turning back. I hooked it it thru me out my kill switch did not work luckily it flipped or it would of came about and got me. I was lucky it was in 12' of water. I treaded water for 20 minutes untill the last bypasser in a boat came thru and helped me out. This was in the Little Manatee river (Gator country) It was scary as hell the water was black, true story. Just be careful.