89 olds cutlass supremepart#3

http://forums.iboats.com/showthread.php?t=348930

Here is where I have left off. Let me give the skinny of what is going on. The car starts runs til warm then acts like its out of gas. I am able to get the car to run when I pull one of the fuel injector banks. Its a V6 so there is 2 fuses for the fuel injectors (bank1 and bank2) each control 3 injectors. I know that the car is running on 3 cylinders at this point. I can only pull one of the fusses and not the other. At first I thought it was a fuel restriction problem so I took it to a mechanic and he said that the fuel injectors were ether clogged or bad. Well now 6 new fuel injectors and it ran perfect for a day and then the same thing! I took it back to him and he said that he thought it was a bad catalytic converter because when i step on the gas when the problem happens the rpm's decelerate instead of accelerate. So I had the catalytic converter replaced at the local muffler shop and that did not help. So, I replaced the fuel pump even though I did not believe that the fuel pump was the problem since when you pulled bank 1 of the injectors the car would run but only on 3 cylinders. If you leave bank one and pull bank 2 the car would not run. So I think there is a problem with getting the bank one (3 injectors) to work. Im not sure at this point where to go. I have a service manual for the car but this problem is not in there.

I have checked the codes and Im getting a code 3-3 which indicates the MAP sensor. Im about to replace that today. Also I have been told that if the Crankshaft Position Sensor is bad that the ECM might not fire all the injectors. This sounds like a possibility of the problem that Im having.

Replaced at this point:
All 6 fuel injectors $500
Catalytic Converter $225
Fuel pump/strainer $100
Fuel Filter $80

Thinking about replacing:
MAP sensor (Manifold Absolute Pressure) $33
Crankshaft Position Sensor $20
Engine Control Computer!!!!!! $166 -core($90) =$76

Im at a loss and I really need this car to run. I have found that the speedometer is off. So that is another sensor. So Im thinking that maybee it is the ECU!!! If I am going 50MPH by gps the speedometer says that Im going 70 so that is 20 MPH off! So that is a lot of things that are wrong for a car that only has 53K miles. This car was owned by a older lady that did not drive the car verry much then sat for a long time. I picked it up because of the miles and not Im stuck! Thanks for any help anyone can give me!!!

Re: 89 olds cutlass supremepart#3

If you havent, Id go to the library and look in the "Mitchel" books in emmisions or fuel books. Read some of the sections and copy off as many as you need to take home.
These books are extremely better than any ofthe rest.
You will also need the trouble shooting sections for this.

I read your last post an you have a real head scratcher.
I would have gone for the cash for clunkers,, just to get rid of the headache. But if i remember right you like the car so maybe not.

Im leaning toward a wiring or ecm problem, but i dont want to lead you with me.

Dont just throw parts at it tho, See if you can find a good mechanic.

Keep us posted.

Re: 89 olds cutlass supremepart#3

A qualified mechanic with a break out box would probably fix this car like clockwork.
NEW=Never Ever Worked, troubleshooting is your friend. You quite possibly have more problems that you started with doing all that parts changing.

I would recommend a GM garage but they probably wont work on it for you, good luckems.

Re: 89 olds cutlass supremepart#3

Here's a read on sensors...what they do
http://www.aa1car.com/library/1999/cm69910.htm
Note the info on CRANK Senors with fuel injectors 15-20 bone part that can give you grief and make you waste money

Re: 89 olds cutlass supremepart#3

Thanks dolluper! what a great read!!Im now starting to think that i might have a bad PCM! The speedometer is off by about 15 MPH (its off by different amounts at different speeds), the low coolant light comes on until you hit abot 35 mph or so, and I never hear the electric fans on the radiator come on at all even when the engine gets warm-hot(not sure if the fans are controlled by the PCM). So I am really wondering if it is in fact my PCM that is causing my headache with this car. Im waiting on a $12 part from autozone (fuel tank lock ring) that they had to special order to get it all put back together and test it out. If it still is doing the same thing after all this then I might just replace the PCM! I was not sure if the MPH being off was cause of the speed control sensor or what but it sounds like all my problems are sensor related and that would point to the PCM, at least thats what I am starting to think. Someone correct me if Im wrong. THANKS!!!!!

Re: 89 olds cutlass supremepart#3

Me thinks your wrong,,,speed off vehicle speed sensor....at least check your grounds ...crank sensor wiring.computer ground especially...if you find nothing wrong in your wiring change your CRANK SENSOR

Re: 89 olds cutlass supremepart#3

where does the vehicle pick up the speed reading? does it have a seperate speed sensor? does it pick it up off the crank sensor?

If the car is picking up a bad signal for the speed it is going to do all kinds of funny stuff with the fuel air mix. Remember these old OBD1 vehicles are pretty archaic when it comes to computing power and ability.

Re: 89 olds cutlass supremepart#3

Man think about it your mod {PCM} will control spark and fueldilivery as long as the crank sensor is giving the right info to the computer ....most problems with the mod are the bottom ground gets corrated ...a very small bolt and nut it is and can break if extra care is not taken removeing it to clean up ...Do yourself a big favour and check your wiring from the crank sensor if good replace the Crank sensor as if bad or failing can cause an asortment of problems

Re: 89 olds cutlass supremepart#3

crank sensor has NOTHING to do with the fuel system...

this is a Speed Density system....

things that control the fuel...

Map Sensor or MAF sensor...these are the main sensors for fuel at idle and run..
Temp sensor... for cold starts and warm run less fuel consumption
Air temp sensor...tells the ECM the air temp and it adjust fuel according to air temp just like the temp sensor...

Speed Sensor this set the mph and also calibrates fuel according to speed...this works in unison with the TPS
TPS tell the ECM the throttle position and taylors fuel according to load from the MAP/MAF and speed according to the Speed sensor...

thats it for fuel....

For spark we have...

Ignition module, Knock Sensor, Temp sensor (relates timing curve to engine warmth) and crank sensor if you have one....

The crank sensor take the place of the Distributor...any DIS ignition has a crank sensor....all this does is locate TDC for each cylinder and set the timing curve accordingly...

Re: 89 olds cutlass supremepart#3

Shizzy said:

where does the vehicle pick up the speed reading? does it have a seperate speed sensor? does it pick it up off the crank sensor?

Click to expand...

Not from the crank sensor. Engine RPMs have nothing to do with speed.

Re: 89 olds cutlass supremepart#3

I found this thread at another place and It seems like exactly what Im going through! I thought you guys might want to check it out. There is 2 guys that are getting the same thing with the same year and make of car. HMMM?
http://www.oldsmobileforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2827

Re: 89 olds cutlass supremepart#3

the speed sensor is in the transmission....

easiest way to find it is to look at the part at a parts store then look on the tranny...you will find it easily...if I had the ambition I would go outside and jack up the wifes cutlass and look..but it is cold outside and I am not that ambitious...lol

Re: 89 olds cutlass supremepart#3

why you think the speed sensor is my problem? Just curious? I have all these sensors that are bad i guess!

Re: 89 olds cutlass supremepart#3

the speed sensor is only bad if the problem is in driving....if it does it in park just reving the engine it isnt the speed sensor...

you did clean all the grounds right...

there should be...

Grounding from battery to fender, battery to engine, engine to frame, frame to body....and I add extra on rusty cars...

its not that I think the sensor is bad...it's just you havent found what is bad...

also...if there are ANY grounds on the engine that are one the Thermostat housing...move them somewhere else...

On GM vehicles they loved to put 2 ground wires on the thermostat housing bolts and these would corrode with antifreeze and lose ground...this will make all kinds of problems as GM grounds the Sensors and ECM on the engine itself...ALL Sensors use a common ground...so if the main ECM ground on the engine is bad then ALL Sensors will be off (out of their limits)

Grounding is VERY important

it very well maybe a ground issue..you'll need to test the injector voltage to find out...it would be the same with 3 running or all 6..if the voltage drops on all 6 injectors you have a grounding issue....

Re: 89 olds cutlass supremepart#3

Read this carefully you will see that the pcm needs proper signal from the crank sensor..it affects the fuel injectors
CRANKSHAFT POSITION SENSOR. Used on engines with distributorless ignition systems, the crankshaft position (CKP) sensor serves essentially the same purpose as the ignition pickup and trigger wheel in an electronic distributor. It generates a signal that the PCM needs to determine the position of the crankshaft and the number one cylinder. This information is necessary to control ignition timing and the operation of the fuel injectors. The signal from the crank sensor also tells the PCM how fast the engine is running (engine rpm) so ignition timing can be advanced or retarded as needed. On some engines, a separate camshaft position sensor is also used to help the PCM determine the correct firing order. The engine will not run without this sensor's input.

There are two basic types of crankshaft position sensors: magnetic and Hall effect. The magnetic type uses a magnet to sense notches in the crankshaft or harmonic balancer. As the notch passes underneath, it causes a change in the magnetic field that produces an alternating current signal.

The frequency of the signal gives the PCM the information it needs to control timing. The Hall effect type of crank sensor uses notches or shutter blades on the crank, cam gear or balancer to disrupt a magnetic field in the Hall effect sensor window. This causes the sensor to switch on and off, producing a digital signal that the PCM reads to determine crank position and speed.

Crank Position Sensor Strategies: If a crank position sensor fails, the engine will die. The engine may, however, still crank but it will not start. Most problems can be traced to faults in the sensor wiring harness. A disruption of the sensor supply voltage (Hall effect types), ground or return circuits can cause a loss of the all-important timing signal.

Re: 89 olds cutlass supremepart#3

Heres some wires to check at your coil pack connector the K terminal a blue wire will run to one bank of your injectors and the F terminal a green wire will run to the other bank of injectors...pull the wires out of your wiring loom and insept them Don't use a meter ,just a visual inseption Also check the M terminal wire a pink+black wire that runs to the crank sensor.....Make sure none of them are rubbing on any part of the engine where they can rub and wear....in turn gronding Also you will find your vehicle speed sensor at the front right of the engine sometimes on the firewall but up in that section forsure
Trace these wires carefully making sure they are all in good condition no breaks or any wearing I have seen many strange things happen to vehicles when the crank sensor works intermiatly....car will die ,no spark ,what one minute spark and runs fine again ,die start right up but only half injectors working as you stated earlier,run great for days and die again.....many problems mostly to do with spark or FUEL DELIVERY

Re: 89 olds cutlass supremepart#3

Don't think map sen will cause injectors not to fire. Crank sensor will kill all the inj. not just 3. Inside the ecm are quad drivers that pulse the injectors. Their is one for each injector. Try and find a good used computer before buying new one. Your mechanic might have one laying around. It does not have to fit your application exactly, gm used one computer for many different cars with a removable prom (programable read only memory). In other words if you can find one from a different car that looks the same and will plug in just remove your prom (behind a little plate with a couple screws) and install it in the test one. This will at least tell you if quad drivers are the problem. If so then you'll have to use the exact ecm for your car by #. On this car speedo is controlled by vehicle speed sensor on transmission, does also send signal to ecm but this car will run fine with no vss signal.

Re: 89 olds cutlass supremepart#3

Sorry but it will just kill three I've seen it happen about 100 times in my car-ear...the only thing I can say is the signal gets split or whatever who cares it happens I've seen other problems like digital speedo going crazy and o2 sensors lean in out man an interput in the crank sensor can cause lots of unseen problems to appear ....I only speak with experience

Re: 89 olds cutlass supremepart#3

dolluper said:

Sorry but it will just kill three I've seen it happen about 100 times in my car-ear...the only thing I can say is the signal gets split or whatever who cares it happens I've seen other problems like digital speedo going crazy and o2 sensors lean in out man an interput in the crank sensor can cause lots of unseen problems to appear ....I only speak with experience

Click to expand...

You have seen a crank sensor kill only 3 injector's 100 time's ?
I have been in auto repair for 30+ yrs. and haven't seen this once. Yes, a "dirty" signal from a sensor might do all kind's of crazy thing's. BUT, the car we are referring to, a '89 cutlass, if the crank sensor is bad the car WILL NOT RUN. PERIOD. I have seen it 100 times.

Re: 89 olds cutlass supremepart#3

I just don't understand why the problem only happens after the car warms up!!! Im about to blow my brains out!!!!!!!! I have to let the car cool overnight or at least 4-5 hours before it will run normally again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!