Are they really fiberglass boats anymore?

EZLoader

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I found a great article which questions the modern construction methods and materials used in today's new Fiberglass boats. It written by a noted Florida Marine Surveyor who is critical of the current manufacturing process (see his article on this link):<br /> <br /> http://www.yachtsurvey.com/Fiberglass_Boats.htm <br /><br />After reading the article what are your thoughts?<br /><br />Here are some other articles by the same surveyor:<br /><br /> http://www.yachtsurvey.com/articleslist.htm
 

Wimperdink

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Re: Are they really fiberglass boats anymore?

He talks a lot about the advanced composites and the putty stuff in the sea ray and many other boats.. scarey stuff...<br /><br />my favorite line out of the whole ariticle after pointing out the bad sea ray construction...<br /><br /> "There were some old Bayliners and Mainships (1970's) that were badly battered, but none were broken up. A few cracks maybe, but mostly heavy gouging and battering."<br /><br />Either way its good to know as I'd hate to hit a log and have a good chunk of boat floating away... holes can be fixed easily enough but i'm not sure about some of the chunks he was pulling off. Scarey really.
 

Ralph 123

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Re: Are they really fiberglass boats anymore?

Thanks for the post. A real eye opener. Looks like ther are some major disasters floating around just waiting to happen.
 

ondarvr

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Re: Are they really fiberglass boats anymore?

The reports are correct that boats made a few (many)years ago are different from boats made now, but many of the reasons why boats are made differently now are because of customer demands. Customers want boats that are lighter, faster, better handling, better looking and affordable, all of these mean different methods of production with different goals. Plus boat builders have been forced to change production methods and the products used to make boats because of environmental and health concerns.<br /><br /> Many of the products that the surveyor did not recognize are common items used in most boats made in the last 15 or more years. Some of the information is accurate, and some is not, many times he does not understand what he looking at and jumps to false conclusions. Also many of the terms he uses are not ones used in the boat buidling industry. I did not read all of the reports, only a few, so I am only referring to the ones I read. <br /><br />There are old boats that were not built well (they are not around any more, so you don't see them) and new ones that are not built well, but not many, most builders do a good job. Don't panic that all boats will fall appart while running across the lake. These boats did not fail doing what they were designed to do, they failed from damage that he did not witness during a storm. I am not saying an older boat would fail in the same manner, it may hold up better, many old boats were built with the "more is better" philosophy.<br />Newer boats are engineered for specific loads and stresses, being battered against a pier may not have been one of the stresses they designed for.
 

Wimperdink

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Re: Are they really fiberglass boats anymore?

all the same, if for some odd reason I got caught in a storm that was battering my boat against a pier, I'd want it to not sink :D
 

ondarvr

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Re: Are they really fiberglass boats anymore?

Not sinking is good.
 

Boomyal

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Re: Are they really fiberglass boats anymore?

This is the problem with modern computer aided engineering. They can take a very narrow, specific set of stress/load circumstances and build a product to deal with those but no more.<br /><br />Boats are not the only recipient of this kind of engineering. In the old days, when they were guessing, the end product had a much wider latitude in what it would endure.
 

EZLoader

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Re: Are they really fiberglass boats anymore?

I want to direct you to one more article regarding the use of coring in modern hulls, decks, etc.. This is a good history of fiberglass boat manufacturing as it has evolved and something new boat buyers should read:<br /><br /> http://www.yachtsurvey.com/core_materials.htm
 

Wimperdink

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Re: Are they really fiberglass boats anymore?

goes back awhile... Thats very scarey. My BIL works for Sea Ray of knoxville and has described the way they are built.. he does some of the detailing before they leave the facility.. he said they will lots of times come back with a fair amount of damage from their test run down the river. Its repaired and smoothed over and off to the buyer. <br /><br />I guess though its no differant than the auto market... it takes considerable force to put a dent in my 77 f=250... My 03 pontiac vibe, if you lean on the fender it will dent and I have to pull a piece of plastic off the inside and pop it back out. ugh
 

djzyla1980

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Re: Are they really fiberglass boats anymore?

One Might say that he is trying to inform the public on his views from being in the industry, I read the first one.... and got 1/2 way through the second one and had to stop. I came to the conclusion that this man isn't to happy in his career choice, and shows nothing but the negative effects from all boat builders. On only a very few slight statments did he express good boat builders, but then it was backed with a negative. One must look at it this way. Auto's have been around a long time as have boats. The auto industry has had there upsets like any other industry out there. These industries are ever changing, good or bad and the consumer is the one that is going to find that out. Auto's can be ran through every test possible, and the ignition wire could work loose and touch the exhuast manifold causing fire. Every industry has it's problems... and every industry has it's critics telling the public the negatives. You take a chance in anything you buy. New, used, tested or untested.
 

ondarvr

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Re: Are they really fiberglass boats anymore?

This report is more accurate in how the industry has tried to produce boats over the years. If you have read some of my other posts on transom and stringer failures, you will see that I agree with how poorly trained some of the people in the industry are. When used correctly these are not bad products, but many times they are used in the wrong place, or incorrectly, then fail. Like the report said, it may cost 10% or more (I think more) over the current cost, to better ensure the boat is made "as designed" and that all products are used correctly. Many of the failures pictured are just bad laminating, not product failures.<br /> <br />As the cost goes up, people complain, then buy fewer boats, Crescent Yachts, one of the companies he said did it correctly, is now out of business. <br />It's up to the consumer, if they demand "old school" methods, then companies that build that way will profit and stay around, but there will be trade offs in some areas.<br /><br />The boats I have are not cored and are built "old school", I like simple. <br /><br />One thing you need to remember, is that a surveyor, like a doctor, is only seeing what has already gone wrong, not the many that do not have problems.
 

EZLoader

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Re: Are they really fiberglass boats anymore?

People hire marine surveyors to protect them from problems...not cover them up. <br /><br />This surveyor is finding more problems with newer boats and is loudly sounding an alarm to the industry. <br /><br />If I were buying an expensive boat and needed a marine survey I'd want this guy or one like him to do it!
 

treedancer

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Re: Are they really fiberglass boats anymore?

I have one Question if you had a accident which would you rather have it in a 1960 model auto or a 2005 auto?
 

Wimperdink

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Re: Are they really fiberglass boats anymore?

that doesnt apply really... quite frankly i'd rather be in a newer truck... airbags and heavier than most cars.<br /><br />Boats dont have airbags so i'd rather be in an older one if it is in fact built stronger than a newer one... either way your nose is gonna smack the steering wheel and your gonna slide off your seat new boat or old.<br /><br />Apples and oranges here<br /><br />if your talking exterior damage only the older vehicle is going to win most every time.
 

ondarvr

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Re: Are they really fiberglass boats anymore?

I don't know this surveyor and he is most likely very good. On his website he has books and services to sell, so the louder he sounds the alarm, the more money he may make. I'm not saying that's what he does, but it's a possibilty. I don't disagree that there can be problems like he has reported, but the majority of boats do not have problems from failures like he discusses.
 

EZLoader

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Re: Are they really fiberglass boats anymore?

This marine surveyor has 40+ years experience. His father was a marine surveyor as well. The fact that he has written detailed books on the subject to educate others gives him even more creditability in my eyes. <br /><br />If you spend some time at his detailed website, you'll find where he has written 20+ articles (most published in 3rd party boating journals) which deal with a whole list of important boating matters. <br /><br />He also provides actual reports to read on a lengthy list of boats that he has surveyed. Reading those reports I can see this person does a thorough and professional job. I see lots of professionalism, backed up by well documented evidence (including photos). If his facts were wrong, I'm sure the boating industry would be successfully suing to silence him. They have not!
 

lakelivin

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Re: Are they really fiberglass boats anymore?

This post reminded me of something I read about awile back.<br /><br />If hull integrety is important to you, may want to look at the following link:<br /><br /> http://www.bizjournals.com/twincities/stories/2004/08/23/story2.html <br /><br />Read through page 2, supposedly these things are nearly indestructable. Course, I know nothing about the rest of the boat...
 

ondarvr

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Re: Are they really fiberglass boats anymore?

I said he was most likely a very good surveyor, but he admitted in the beginning of the report you posted that he didn't know much about building boats and did not recognize the products used to make them, nor did he have the time to watch boats being made. <br />I do know how to build boats and can identify each of the products used, tell you who made them and the name of the rep that sold them. Plus tell you how each of them is supposed to be used for best results. I get paid to watch things made of fiberglass get built, that includes boats of all sizes, RVs, bathtubs, Chemical tanks, counter tops.....<br /><br />I have spent weeks at a time in boat shops doing audits in the fiberglass production areas, then I submit my reports to the managers. I was also the marine market manager for North America at a company I worked for a few years ago. <br />I have worked with almost all of the companies he talks about, from time to time they each build boats that may not be all they could (should) be, but it's not that they don't care. These companies don't want their boats to fail, so when they do, research is done to find out why and then make changes. Can boats be made better, yes, all it takes is $$$$.
 

BrettNC

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Re: Are they really fiberglass boats anymore?

I don't own any of the boats that were featured in the article, but I would really take what this guy has to say with a grain of salt. <br />Unless he is an engineer, especially one who works with fiberglass and reinforced composites, then his opinions on a lot of this subject matter are meaningless. The guy even admits that he does not know what most of the materials are.<br /><br />Surveying and design/engineering have nothing to do with each other. <br /><br />Some of the articles are good, such as the one on why boats sink and the relevant statistics.
 

Ralph 123

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Re: Are they really fiberglass boats anymore?

ondarvr I think the issue is most people don't realize there was a change in materials used to build what we all think of a fiberglass boats. As he points out, some of these boats have such little fiberglass one wonders if they can be truly called fiberglass.<br /><br />The fact that these hulls can be compromised by a blow with a carpenter's hammer is very distressing to me. It would seems a relatively minor strike could put you at risk of sinking. What if you get caught in heavy weather or hit an unexpected swell and are launched off the face of a wave and drop 10' or more into a trough? Will the boat crack in half? Will the transom break off? These are all common occurrences on the ocean, sometimes even in a harbor. It would seem a common occurrence could turn into a death sentence.
 
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