Gas Question.. Fact or False?

[rodbolt]

Re: Gas Question.. Fact or False?

.
I gotta figgue out how to post pics.
some fuel lines,especially the silver merc lines, the seirra silverado and a few others use a vynil liner.
the e eats the liner and feeds it to the engine fuel system.
most my work lately, and I am an autherized tech for mercruiser and volvo and a master tech for yamaha, have been ethanol related typically either water or fuel system component degradation caused by the ethanol.
can the engine itself handle E-10, barely.
most 4 year old and older boats cannot.
like I say, the guy with the tinny and the 9.9 and a 6 gallon tank never has issues.
the guy with the 33 grady or the 36 contender with 325 to 400 gallon capacity has serious issues.

 

[JoLin]

Re: Gas Question.. Fact or False?

Basically, what you're saying is that Merc, Sierra and maybe Yamaha, knowingly sell inferior parts to their customers. Making components e-resistant certainly isn't a mystery any longer, so the only logical reason to do so would be that they're cheaper to make, i.e., they're ripping people off.

Interesting that nobody's brought a class action suit (unless they have and I'm just unaware of it).

 

[Falco]

Re: Gas Question.. Fact or False?

I have been a victim of phase seperation in my tank as the boat is used once a month with road gas. Star-tron worked well for me to cure it.

 

[Don S]

Re: Gas Question.. Fact or False?

Moving this over to Boat topics.
It's not just an IO problem but also includes outboards. Might as well let everyone have an opinion.

 

[oldjeep]

Re: Gas Question.. Fact or False?

Ethanol has been a fixture in most regions of the country for something like 30years. Hoses, seals and gaskets materials were revised to handle it long ago. Virtually NO actual running issues in boats can logically be attributed to ethanol any longer.

People need to stop blaming it for their "running" issues. If your fuel sits around a lot, treat it to prevent phase separation. I do. Otherwise I don't pay any attention to it, and don't experience any issues from it.

My .02

But ethanol stole my wife and beat my dog. I did sacrafice a chicken about 10 years ago and so far it has worked - no ethanol issues in my cars, boat or any other engine I own.

 

[Lou C]

Re: Gas Question.. Fact or False?

Basically, what you're saying is that Merc, Sierra and maybe Yamaha, knowingly sell inferior parts to their customers. Making components e-resistant certainly isn't a mystery any longer, so the only logical reason to do so would be that they're cheaper to make, i.e., they're ripping people off.

Interesting that nobody's brought a class action suit (unless they have and I'm just unaware of it).

Actually this (class action lawsuit) HAS happened already....Bertram owner...fiberglass gas tank...E-10 dissolves resins in tank...resins turns to a sticky mess and it coats the intake valves and ruins the engine...check the BoatUS website or do a search...the owner said he was not warned that the ethanol could cause the resins to break down and cause problems...

When you change your water separating fuel filter....pour the gas out into a glass jar and let it sit...if you see a layer of water on the bottom...well E-10 could be the culprit...or not...it's hard to tell...but one of the problems is that when the ethanol is mixed in...it's not always 10%...sometimes 15%...sometimes 20%...even more...and that's what really causes problems...

here's my problem...ethanol is nothing more than big agri-business pushing its agenda on gov't regulators...when we get 15% ethanol...guess what....you have just violated your new engine warrentee...lots a luck...the manufacturers say 10% is ok any more is not...so every boat engine...lawn mower engine...weed wacker..etc...no warrentee...nice eh?
and why 15 % you might ask...well it seems that agri-business figured out that they won't make money at only 10% so say goodbye to your warrantees when this goes through...and just remember...it's got NOT ONE THING to do with the environment...all bout money....

and btw...it does affect engines in ways you might not be able to sense...it leans out fuel mixtures...which is NOT good for 2 stroke outboards and heavily loaded 4 stroke inboards and I/Os which are normally set to run pretty rich...

And one last comment I'll make...the FAA has determined that alcohol has no place in the tank of an aircraft...because...they are vented to the atmosphere...JUST LIKE BOAT ENGINES....that should tell you something....

 

[Wingpilot]

Re: Gas Question.. Fact or False?

Basically, what you're saying is that Merc, Sierra and maybe Yamaha, knowingly sell inferior parts to their customers. Making components e-resistant certainly isn't a mystery any longer, so the only logical reason to do so would be that they're cheaper to make, i.e., they're ripping people off.

Interesting that nobody's brought a class action suit (unless they have and I'm just unaware of it).

Marine engines produced from 1997 (approx) - Outboard, IO, inboard- are capable of using ethanol laced gasoline. Ethanol produces less energy than an equivalent amount of gasoline so more is needed to do the job. Ethanol is also hygroscopic; ie; it attracts water and will mix with it. It has been around since the mid 1800's when it was first produced synthetically, yes, but it was not MANDATED as a fuel additive. Ethanol also structurally affects some variations of fibreglass resins- some of which were used to manufacture built -in fuel tanks on boats. This resulted in tank failures and subsequent sinkings and fires on boats- most notably on Long Island- Great South Bay and Long Island Sound but also in great numbers up and down the East coast and Caifornia.
"Running problems" can absolutely be traced to ethanol and to deny this effect is simply burying your head in the sand. A search for Ethanol related articles on this board will reveal only the surface of the amount of problems (and dollars) this ill-advised and under investigated additive has cost the boating public. If you have managed to avoid any damage or ill effects from using this fuel then I applaud your luck or intuitiveness. Ethanol does not demonstrate it's shortcomings in cars because of the fuel turnover rate- it is constantly/regularly being used and circulated through the engine. In a boat that sits for a week or two or three at a time and is used in a wet environment, the fuel is given the oppurtunity to absorb ambient moisture and separate putting the highly charged water/ethanol at the tank bottom right at the fuel pickup. The first line of defense for this situation is a good fuel/water separator before the fuel pump. Without it, an internal combustion engine has a hard or impossible time running on H2O.
So the satement is NOT that engine maufacturers are ripping people off-but we are being ripped off and it could get worse if the government ups the mandated percentage of ethanol to satisfy the corn farmers lobby.
That's my .02c- My son and I suffered the loss of 3 perfectly good outboards at the height of this fiasco in Port Jeff and Patchogue. I don't want to see it happen to anyone else. Ed.

 

[HT32BSX115]

Re: Gas Question.. Fact or False?

And one last comment I'll make...the FAA has determined that alcohol has no place in the tank of an aircraft...because...they are vented to the atmosphere...JUST LIKE BOAT ENGINES....that should tell you something....

Well,


That's not the only reason.....

From: http://www.eaa.org/news/2006/2006-11-01_faa.asp

The FAA cites numerous reasons that alcohol and airplanes do not mix. Alcohol:

• Adversely affects the volatility of auto gasoline, which could cause vapor lock.
• Is corrosive and not compatible with the rubber seals and other materials used in aircraft, which could lead to fuel system deterioration and malfunction.
• Is subject to phase separation, which happens when the fuel is cooled as an aircraft climbs to higher altitudes. When the alcohol separates from the gasoline, it may carry water that has been held in solution and that cannot be handled by the sediment bowl.
• Reduces the energy content of the fuel. Methanol has approximately 55 percent of the energy content of gasoline, ethanol 73 percent. More alcohol equals reduced range.

But, having said that...... Ever since it's been available, I have run it in everything I own that runs on gasoline and have not had any problems (I have no fiberglass fuel tanks)

 

[JoLin]

Re: Gas Question.. Fact or False?

If you have managed to avoid any damage or ill effects from using this fuel then I applaud your luck or intuitiveness. .

Me and thousands of others, you mean. Of course, I do use a stabilizer to prevent separation, and a fuel-water separator to catch contamination, but that's just good preventive maintenance. Anyone who doesn't do those things is courting problems anyway.

It's all good. Have fun boating.

 

[Lou C]

Re: Gas Question.. Fact or False?

Me and thousands of others, you mean. Of course, I do use a stabilizer to prevent separation, and a fuel-water separator to catch contamination, but that's just good preventive maintenance. Anyone who doesn't do those things is courting problems anyway.

It's all good. Have fun boating.

I haven't had major problems yet...but my Marine Quadrajet has needed to get rebuilt twice in 8 years...we had a Quadrajet on our 75 Olds running straight gas and it was on the engine 15 years..never needed to be rebuilt...and that one didn't have a fuel/water separator...I also had an antisiphon valve corrode and stick which caused fuel starvation...right about the time ole E-10 came on the scene...

and also the stabilizers...do not...really prevent phase separation...they just keep the gas from going bad in terms of its abilty to burn...once you get enough water in your gas...it's going to phase separate...come hell or snake oil...

The one good thing...is that once you have run E-10 for a while it really does clean out your fuel system...but if you are in an area that just changed...keep a few fuel filters on hand to deal with possbile clogging...I have used the Sierra 10 micron ones that seem to work well...but the Racor is the ultimate...

 

[jtexas]

Re: Gas Question.. Fact or False?

I have been a victim of phase seperation in my tank as the boat is used once a month with road gas. Star-tron worked well for me to cure it.

Whatever problem you cured with an additive, it could not have been phase separation.

Once the ethanol has separated from the gasoline because of water absorption, there's no putting it back. Saturating ethanol with water causes chemical changes to the ethanol. Star Tron doesn't even claim to restore phase-separated gas.

You won't get enough atmostpheric moisture in the tank to cause phase separation. Gasoline itself can dissolve that much water.

If you got phase separation it's because rainwater or lakewater got in, or there was water in the gas when you bought it. [hint: a real good reason *not* to buy marina gas.]

Everybody blames the gasoline when their carbs get dirty, but guess what...carbs have been getting clogged since way before E-10 was ever on the drawing board.

 

[Shife]

Re: Gas Question.. Fact or False?

The amount of misinformation and dock rumour in this thread is staggering. There is a mountain of research and documentation on ethanol fuels and their use in the marine environment. The facts are a lot less exciting than anything in this thread. Maybe that's why all this inaccurate hearsay is so much more popular.

 

[Andy in NY]

Re: Gas Question.. Fact or False?

anyone in ny/vt/ma that has a stewarts nearby... their gas does NOT contain ethanol. its the ONLY place i buy my gas.

 

[Home Cookin']

Re: Gas Question.. Fact or False?

don't assume that all fuel at a marina is ethanol free. Around here, few if any are. Marina gas is usually the same as gas station gas. Likewise, it is seldom "premium" it's just priced that way.
Marina gas can have water in it--one yacht club here is famous for it. Many marinas have older systems and--big surprise--are more exposed to water getting in the system than land based.
Land based can have water in it, too; last summer a local chain got a lot of water-laden fuel that affected cars. Likewise, the percentage of ethanol can vary (accidentally). Another local station got what turned out to be 20%.
so--make your own?

 

[mtp9302]

Re: Gas Question.. Fact or False?

Will never happen. Not enough ethanol as it is right now and we are quickly learning how ridiculous growing corn to produce ethanol is.

Very true, but corn isn't the only way to make E85. GM currently has a few partnerships with companies working to make ethanol from sources such as municipal waste. Once this processing is perfected and volumes increase, the estimated cost to consumers is as little as $1/gal. Even considering the efficiency drop inherent in E85 vs gasoline, at that price I don't see how there wouldn't be a market for E85.

I'm not suggesting that GM is the only one working on this either, but I work for GM so I know more about them than others. You can get there other ways, such as reforming the methane that is outgassed from landfills. Switching the source to something that we don't normally have a need for would make it a no-brainer I think.

 

[ondarvr]

Re: Gas Question.. Fact or False?

The amount of misinformation and dock rumour in this thread is staggering. There is a mountain of research and documentation on ethanol fuels and their use in the marine environment. The facts are a lot less exciting than anything in this thread. Maybe that's why all this inaccurate hearsay is so much more popular.

I agree.

 

[rbh]

Re: Gas Question.. Fact or False?

Does anyone purchase fuel from a bulk station??, they may have just straight fuel with no additives, call around.

 

[180Fisherman]

Re: Gas Question.. Fact or False?

Water is not the problem with ethanol. Ethanol will dissolve the resins in older fiberglass gas tanks. That resin then contaminates your entire fuel system including the engine internals. I would only be concerned if you have an old fiberglass gas tank.

Where all this concern over water in your fuel came from i have no idea and frankly it is just a bit silly.

 

[bruceb58]

Re: Gas Question.. Fact or False?

Very true, but corn isn't the only way to make E85. GM currently has a few partnerships with companies working to make ethanol from sources such as municipal waste.

Unfortuantely, ethanol from waste would be a small drop in the bucket of our usage. Instead of corn, we should be using ethanol from switchgrass. The farm lobby is so huge that corn is the major source in the US.

 

[sickwilly]

Re: Gas Question.. Fact or False?

We could also import a butt load of ethanol from Brazil, but our congress won't allow it. Wonder why?

There is also future promise from producing it from algae.

By the way, E85 around here finally hit the price point where its worth running in my truck. Have a half tank full right now, making me about E50.