Can 1708 biaxle cloth be stapled then epoxied?

[lime4x4]

As u can c in the below pic i have alot of rises and corners to do. My thought was to use 38 inch wide 1708 cloth. Staple it fast then coat with epoxy.

 

[Bob_VT]

Re: Can 1708 biaxle cloth be stapled then epoxied?

As long as you can get it wet out properly I think it "might" work.

 

[Lone Duck]

Re: Can 1708 biaxle cloth be stapled then epoxied?

I think I would give the wood a coat of epoxy first. Then just before it kicks staple your glass on. I wonder if a guy could use self adhesive glass drywall tape to hold it ? Just a thought .

 

[redfury]

Re: Can 1708 biaxle cloth be stapled then epoxied?

Staples aren't going to hurt anything, that's for sure ( use Stainless to avoid long term issues ). I guess it is going to depend on how the glass you are using likes to move around. If you put too much pressure on the staples, you could cause the glass to "lift" on either side of it, giving you problems with wetting out and avoiding bubbles...I think that really is the biggest concern I'd have. Get your staple depth set just right and I think it would work like a charm. I'd commit to a small section and test the theory first though...you'll want to see how the glass reacts to the process.

 

[drewpster]

Re: Can 1708 biaxle cloth be stapled then epoxied?

The ideal way to wet out any cloth is to wet it out prior to placing it. That is not always possible. The risk is that the resin will not fully penetrate the cloth. To counter that the installer will tend to soak the cloth with a roller and tons of resin to insure a good bond. This can cause a resin rich layup. Epoxy is far more forgiving than polyester in resin rich layers because epoxy does not crack as easily as polyester.
So if you are wetting the cloth out in place be conscience of this.
I would be concerned that the areas compressed by the stapels will not wet out correctly.
If I were doing all those angles I would heavily fillet the inside corners and heavily radius the outside ones to help the cloth lay down. I would also lay the CSM and the cloth separately. The CSM will conform pretty easily once it is wet in place. The wet CSM in turn will really help the cloth lay in place. The biaxial cloth will help as well but any tight corner is a challenge. That's why the factories let the corners bridge in the old days before chopper guns.

 

[ondarvr]

Re: Can 1708 biaxle cloth be stapled then epoxied?

I have never seen a reason to use staples to hold glass in place.

Coat the wood and leave it sit until its hard, you can place the glass on it while its tacky if needed, but from the looks of what you're glassing you shouldn't need to. Apply resin to the surface before laying down the glass so the underside won't be dry, then apply resin as needed to the top side. Applying to much resin isn't a big problem when using a fuzzy roller because it will pick up excess resin and move to where its needed, or it can be used to remove the resin.

Its already been said, make sure you have a good smooth radius on all corners (inside and out) and the glass will lay down easily.

 

[WizeOne]

Re: Can 1708 biaxle cloth be stapled then epoxied?

I vote for monel/stainless staples in areas that would benefit from help to keep the glass on the wood. Radiused corners, both inside and outside are also always a big plus.

I have tried placing glass on tacky resin before. I doesn't work once you re-wet the glass.

 

[erikgreen]

Re: Can 1708 biaxle cloth be stapled then epoxied?

Hookay... I wasn't gonna reply when I saw ondarvr did, but I feel the need to correct a few really poor ideas here.

First, the good stuff:

I have never seen a reason to use staples to hold glass in place.

Coat the wood and leave it sit until its hard, you can place the glass on it while its tacky if needed, but from the looks of what you're glassing you shouldn't need to.

I agree. Coat the surface of the glass or wood you're covering first, then let it soak up the resin some and get tacky. If needed apply more resin once it soaks in. You do this for two reasons:

• Wood will absorb resin, and if you put wet out glass on dry wood and simply roll out the bubbles, the wood may soak up enough resin to "starve" the outer fibers, creating a weak bond there.
• The tacky or wet resin can be used as an adhesive to put cloth in place, obviating the need for staples or adhesive

I use a foam roller and plastic squeegee for almost all glassing. I wet the surfaces, allow them to tack, then lay my pre-cut dry glass in place (assuming it's thin enough to saturate well) then roll/squeegee it out until it's transparent, adding more resin with the roller as needed.

The only time I wet out fabric before putting it in place is if it's so thick I have to roll/press in resin from both sides to fully saturate it. This would apply to something like 3210 biax/mat, or thick mat, or even 1708 with a thicker resin.

Now a few issues (according to me, anyway):

Staples aren't going to hurt anything, that's for sure ( use Stainless to avoid long term issues ).

Staples aren't red's idea here, just using him as a convenient scapegoat.

In most applications in a boat, staples are a bad idea to hold fiberglass in place for wetting. This is because of the way the reinforcing fibers function structurally. Fiberglass is strong because the fibers provide tensile strength and the resin keeps the fibers in place. Fiberglass works well for boats because it's flexible but strong. It "gives" where needed instead of breaking. This is why "hard spots" are a problem in hulls.. they're places where the fiberglass isn't allowed to give, and it therefore cracks and fails.

Putting staples in fiberglass creates a spot where the fiber can't move because it's firmly attached to the underlying wood. It creates a "hard spot" where the glass can't give. This may not be a problem depending on the function of the piece the staple is in, but it can also be catastrophic.

Stainless steel staples actually won't help here, by the way. Stainless avoids corrosion by forming an oxide layer in its surface. This coating keeps further corrosion from happening. If the stainless is placed in an area where there's little/no oxygen, it can start corroding because a new oxide layer can't form when the existing one is damaged. This is what's called "crevice corrosion". I'd think a staple inside fiberglass would be well protected from water, but if any got in there, it'd corrode.

Finally, if you can't get your glass to stay in place on a vertical surface, and you can't or won't use the method described above, then use a limited amount of 3m super 77 or super 90 spray adhesive to stick the glass in place. It'll hold dry glass well and doesn't cause any real problems with wet-out and strength of the eventual glass.

But if you use some creativity I think you'll find you don't need to use anything but resin to put the glass in place.

Erik