Build aluminum John from scratch? But Bigger!

[huntxtrm]

I want to build myself an aluminum john type boat, only bigger. I don't like the models availble. I want to build something flat, wide, shallow and somewhat fast. I want to mount around 50hp of good ole evenrude power to it. Pointed with a center console type design. I can't find much info on the net as to design of something like this. Any of you fellas got any plans, ideas, scowls, scorns etccc.......

 

[tashasdaddy]

Re: Build aluminum John from scratch? But Bigger!

1st can you weld aluminum? if not it will get real expensive fast.

 

[oops!]

Re: Build aluminum John from scratch? But Bigger!

as far as the plans go.....find a woodie that you like and copy it....

send a pm to erickgreen.....he knows where good plans are.

cheers
oops

 

[5150abf]

Re: Build aluminum John from scratch? But Bigger!

Boy that is a pretty big bite hunt.

The marine environment is one of the harshest in the world next to racing in Baja, I actually weld aluminum boats(23 years) and I really like to design and build things and I would never even consider building my own hull there is just too many things to consider and if you don't get it right you start over.

I have seen what goes into the R&D of boats, there is a reason they have a bunch guys, some big computers and huge budgets

Even if you get it right the first time the aluminum is going to cost you upwards of $1500, at least, if you can even find sheets big enough to build a boat, there are 2-3 places in the entire United States you can even get sheet aluminum and they don't sell it by the piece.

If it were me I would find a hull that is close to what you want and modify it, that way you will know you are starting out with a sea worthy hull at least.

Don't know what your budget is but there is a company in Illinois called Weld-Pro that will make you a custom hull, they build boats for the Coasties so they are super tough hulls.

 

[tmcalavy]

Re: Build aluminum John from scratch? But Bigger!

There are several sites/companies online that have boat plans available. As already said, find plans for a woodie and then check the cost of doing it up in aluminum. Probably real pricey...might make a wood/glass boat look real attractive.

 

[Bob_VT]

Re: Build aluminum John from scratch? But Bigger!

Do a search for Winger Ed. here on iboats. He built an aluminum hydroplane and I believe it was close to 8000 rivets...... but it would run at 80 mph. He scrounged his aluminum from scrapyards.

 

[ondarvr]

Re: Build aluminum John from scratch? But Bigger!

Here in the NW we have many aluminum boat builders that have models like what you're descirbing, they also do semi custom designs, so if design is the concern and not the budget, then you should be able get exactly what you want.

Now if $$$ is the reason you want to do it, then you better already have a fully equiped shop to do the work, or you won't save any $$$.

If you just want a project and know what's involved, then go for it.

 

[huntxtrm]

Re: Build aluminum John from scratch? But Bigger!

To answer some of your questions. I have never welded aluminum, but I am a good ferrouse welder. Mig, stick. I have always wanted to try aluminum. I am planning on getting some aluminum experience and feel building the bait, storage livewell boxes or some other small parts before going after the hull. It is not necesarily a money thing, I just like doing stuff like that for the satisfaction of the finished product, made by me and my imagination. With a little help from outside influences of course. I do like several boat designs out there, but none have all I want, or my personal layout for design. Plus a john with a width of 8' or more and length of about 18' is hard to find it seems. plus I'm thinking more along the lines of a smooth deck design, center console. Sort of like a skiff except built for the river. I am a river fishing freak, and bow fishing is one of my fav sports. That's gonna be the norm for this boat. Shallow water bowfishing and catfishing. Most boats on the market don't have enough dance floor for bowfishing to suit my liking. Plus they aren't wid enoug to be real stable when shooting from a pedestal. I think I can. With yalls help of course! I am figuring on spending aroung $2000.00 on aluminum. I have already found a supplier locally, that sells marine grade. Shoot me all the ideas, pics or whatever you can give me. It's gonna be a hoot!

 

[Bob_VT]

Re: Build aluminum John from scratch? But Bigger!

8' wide x 18' good luck. That is pontoon territory and remember your going to need a trailer too. That's alot to tow.

 

[Lightnig]

Re: Build aluminum John from scratch? But Bigger!

I admire your urge to 'stretch your legs' a little and at the same time create something practical that you can enjoy.

I myself was a welder in a previous life; while I did work with steel lots (primarily of the circular variety - pipelines, fab'ed spools, and heat exchangers), I tended to specialize in high alloys, stainless and tonnes of aluminum. I can tell you from lots of experience, Al is actually quite easy to make a servicable structural weld on, but it is very difficult to do it right - even with the right equipment. and the thinner the material is the tougher to get right.

I would suggest you heed 5150's advice and find something close to what you want and then modify. You are going to have much easier time with this than attempting a new design while learning how to weld Al. I am not trying to discourage you at all, I just don't want to see you tackle a project too large and then frustrate yourself into hating it. I do like your plan of starting small (with boxes etc) and then working up to the major jobs.


And if you do decide to pursue this, forget about the Mig - go for a nice AC TIG with High Freq. H.F. Mig in a push-pull config is great for heavy alum sections, but light stuff like a boat hull will require a certain finesse (and a massive travel speed) that takes a bit of experience to acquire, you will find the TIG much more forgiving during your learning period. Another reason to go with Tig over Mig is that potential warpage with Mig on the thin material is HUGE!

Regardless of which process you decide to try, High Freq is an absolute requirement. Trying to get a good weld in Al without it destined to be a failure.

Good luck.

 

[ondarvr]

Re: Build aluminum John from scratch? But Bigger!

There's a bunch companies building boats just like you described, here's the first one that popped up when I Googled it.

http://www.weldproboats.com/flat-max.html

There were other local (too me) builders that I checked also, they had very similar products and customize them too.

I did a similar thing to what you talked about, I found an older aluminum hull that was close to what I wanted, then gutted and totally rebuilt it into something that worked very well for me. I don't weld aluminum, but I did fabricate everything that needed to be welded and took it to the shop for them to do it.

I sold all the stuff I gutted out of the boat and recouped several hundred $$, so I have about $1,200 invested (boat and all modifications) in this boat and for the last seven years its worked great.

 

[huntxtrm]

Re: Build aluminum John from scratch? But Bigger!

Thanks for the welding advice. and thanks for the link! So you think tig is the way to go. I am leaning toward a structural frame, with a skin of around .175 or so, with a foam fill for rigidity. Mig would not be good for structural welding? I thought maybe it would be more efficient because of the wire feed? I don't know any welders who do aluminum, so I really appreciate your information.. I need some good welding advice, since I have never done al before. Give me any thing that you think would be useful to me. I really do want to do this, I thing it would be a cool deal. Beside I don't give up easily. Thanks again

 

[huntxtrm]

Re: Build aluminum John from scratch? But Bigger!

I like that link, those are awesome boats. But I still want to build my own.

 

[huntxtrm]

Re: Build aluminum John from scratch? But Bigger!

OOPS! I tried pm to erickgreen. Said no user on this forum. I copied and pasted the name, is it the right name? Let me give yall a little more info on what I want to do, maybe it will help clarify. I want to build a flat bottom, shallow draft boat, that will hold about 50 hp of good ole rude power. Center console, flat deck sorta like a flat skiff. battery, fuel tank in the back. removable storage/bowfishing platform in the front. Live well under drivers seat/split. Aluminum, welded structure skinned with around .175" aluminum skin and foam filled for rigidity. About 8' wide or more if possible, about 18' long. Large dancefloor for catfishing and bowfishing, gator hunting etc....River/swamp Boat! Not for big water! I want design to be somewhat simple, but sound. Help me realize my dream. It can be done! I think? Just kidding, I don't give up easily!

 

[ondarvr]

Re: Build aluminum John from scratch? But Bigger!

There is no "c" in erikgreen, so try again.


Well, sounds like your up for an adventure, so take us along and we can all share in building an aluminum boat with you.



By the way, I also have a 19' center console that's perfect for bow fishing, it has a very wide flat bow area and I take some buddies to Eastern Washington to do it occasionally. One good friend did TV show on Bow fishing a year or so ago.

 

[5150abf]

Re: Build aluminum John from scratch? But Bigger!

If your gonna do it TIG is the only way, butt welding sheet would be next to impossible with a MIG and you would need a TIG to fix the holes any how.

Again I have TIG/MIG welded aluminum in the pontoon world for 23 years and consider myself a master level welder, I've taugh at least 150 people how to weld over the years so I will throw you any help I can.

Always wanted to do what you are only I would buy the hull and build the boat inside it, of coarse I haven't been able to hit the lottery yet so that is still on hold.

And for the record I wasn't trying to talk you out of doing this only trying to point out how big of a job it is.

Biggest newbie mistakes, everyone thinks aluminum "drops" as soon as you strike and arc so they always go way too fast and just kinda melt rod on top, no so.

Get a sheet and just practice striking an arc for awhile, as soon as you strike the metal turns grey first then you can see it get shiny, now it is ready for rod.

When you can consistently strike an arc without touching the tungsten you are ready to start learning.

I tell all the new guys it is like playing Pac Man, your torch always moves at a constant forward speed and you "feed" the weld when it opens it's mouth, once you start welding you see what I mean.

Doing that much welding you will absolutely need a water cooled welder so I geuss that would be your first task is coming into a welder, I highly reccomend Miller.

We use both Lincoln and Miller and the Lincolns like to do stuff for you, if you change one thing the machine changes all the rest of the parameters, I don't like them, with the Miller machines you can taylor the welder to do what you want.

If it were me I would start with a paper and pencil and draw out the entire boat with dimensions, you can eliminate alot of mistakes before you ever even turn on a machine.

 

[huntxtrm]

Re: Build aluminum John from scratch? But Bigger!

check out this site! http://www.dixiebowfishing.com/boat.htm This guy built a bowfishing boat from scratch. It looks awesome when completed. Not quit what I'm looking for, but gives me some ideas. Thanks for the welding info 5150, I'm sure i'll have a lot of questions for you down the line. I'm gonna start drawing on it tonight. Soon as i get some progress on the drawing, I'll post it for your opinions. I'm gonna draw it in cad and convert to pdf. Hope to buy the aluminum in a few weeks and get started, if it don't work it will make a good conversation piece! Just kidding, I have faith. Thanks fellas, if you see any pics or links that might help me shoot em my way. And send me a pic of you bowfishing boat that you gutted and rebuilt, might offer some ideas. And 5150 When welding marine grade, is there marine grade filler?

 

[ondarvr]

Re: Build aluminum John from scratch? But Bigger!

In your PM you asked about the boat we use here, this is it.

Its fiberglass though, not aluminum.

http://www.bluewaveboats.com/190_Classic.cfm

 

[huntxtrm]

Re: Build aluminum John from scratch? But Bigger!

I found a foudation for my boat building. I want to center my design around a air boat, no fan, outboard center console. they set in the water shallow, run fast and have a big deck. I saved a few pics of what i found but i don't know how to add them to this post. If someone cand tell me, I'll show yall what I mean. I think I figured it out. someone tell me if there's no pics. Thanks

 

[erikgreen]

Re: Build aluminum John from scratch? But Bigger!

There is no "c" in erikgreen, so try again.

Unless I've recently been diving in the bahamas, of course. Then I tend to have half a gallon or so

I responded to his PM, just thought I'd CC the info here.

Basically, all the boat designers I know of don't sell plans for aluminum boats that small... some do sell plans that are convertible between fiberglass and aluminum, though. I suggested he make a post on boatdesign.net to contact a marine architect there... there are a lot of smaller builders there that might have what he's looking for.

Here's the message:

Hmmm... as far as specific plans for a bowfishing boat, nothing springs to mind, but there are plenty of small boat plans out there that you could adapt.

I'd suggest you ask your question on the web forum dedicated to boat design, www.boatdesign.net, there are a lot of marine architects there and a number of them may have pointers to a design you can use. Probably plans will cost you something like $100-$200 from one of them.

If you want to adapt a fiberglass boat, that's easier, but most of the plans for metal boats I know of are for larger types.

You may have these already, but check out these links for some info on builds:

http://www.bowfishingmadness.com/cus...-building.html

http://www.womenhunters.com/boat-kathleen-kalina.html

The second one would be good if you want to try to renovate an existing aluminum boat... and a lot of the iboats folks would help there.

--end message

As an add-on to this thread, note that going from Ferrous metal to aluminum welding is actually fairly hard. Some of your skills will translate, and some won't. Plan on spending money on an aluminum spool gun for your MIG welder, plus getting different shielding gas (pure argon) if you don't already use it.

You'll need some shaped pieces of copper, big enough to be heat sinks, that you can use while welding, and you'll also need an oven, heat booth or torch setup that lets you pre-heat the aluminum before welding.

Also plan on getting a separate set of stainless wire brushes, cleaning tools, grinding tools, and gloves to use only for aluminum, so you don't contaminate your welds with steel bits. Also look into getting a set up for chemically cleaning the metal before use, it'll save you a lot of mistakes when you're working with larger pieces.

Then plan on spending a significant amount of time practicing on scrap pieces of aluminum. It's not like steel where a bad weld looks bad but you can go over it again, it's more like a bad weld can melt the piece entirely or contaminate it so you can't use it.

All that said, it's useful to be able to weld aluminum, so I've been trying to learn, mostly on small pieces I can easily clean and work on. Once you get past the hurdles of cleaning and handling and make them habit, the welding isn't actually that bad.

But if I had a choice I'd make things out of stainless steel instead. Much easier.


Erik