any info/opinon? -gas to electric conversions

[tassie ben]

I have been researching and thinking of the whole climate change issue and the relationship it has to me and my little johnson 6hp. I have seen a couple of sites with projects whereby someone has taken off their powerhead and replaced it with an adapter plate and an electric motor.

I have a 13ft purdon fiberglass dinghy and i suppose i am keen to try the whole electric thing out...not that i don't love my 1979 seahorse but i suppose when or if it dies it could be a great thing to buy a kit whereby you can keep the lower leg and just bolt on an electric motor and stick in your batteries. No noise!, No emissions ( i read somewhere that the pollution created taking our outboards 5km is the same as taking 200 cars the same distance and it is more if the outboard is a two stroke - like mine), performance?(i would still like to travel 15km in a day)

Does anyone else have any links/leads or just opinions about whether this is a good idea or as easy as it seems?

ben

 

[tashasdaddy]

Re: any info/opinon? -gas to electric conversions

buy a tiller mount trolling motor. and load the boat with batteries.

 

[wbeaton]

Re: any info/opinon? -gas to electric conversions

You can't replace a 6 hp with an electric motor and get the same performance. For instance, Briggs & Stratton have an electric motor that outputs the equivalent of 3 hp (175 ft/lbs thrust), weights about 70 lbs and has a cruise time of 2 hours on (4) group 31 deep cycle batteries (approx. 115 AH/each) wired for 48V with an additional weight of 70lbs/battery or 280lbs/bank.

How fast does your 6 hp push? I assume you'd get around 10 kmh with the Briggs maybe less with the added weight. Especially considering you have a dingy, which plows when not on plane. So maybe you'd get 20 km in a day under ideal conditions. Also, the addtional 300 lbs may be too much for your boat and a bank of 4 large batteries will greatly deminish the already limited space in your boat.

It will also take 46 hours to recharge those batteries from dead with your standard marine/deep cycle battery charger. So consider buying four chargers.

Don't forget to factor in the costs for the group 31 batteries. The batteries will cost around $200/each and last 1-10 years. Plus the charger(s), which will be an additional $70/each. That's $870-1080 before the cost of the retrofit/new motor.

If you do go this route let us know what happens.

 

[Silvertip]

Re: any info/opinon? -gas to electric conversions

And whose B.S. did you read that indicated the numbers you mention. Remember, CO2 (carbon dioxide) is also said by environmentalists to be a bad for the environment. Seems to me trees take in CO2 and give off oxygen. How is that harmful to us. Be darned certain you know whose providing that information before you launch into some project ill-informed. So you save fuel using electric power. Where in heavens name do you think that electric power comes from to charge those batteries? Perpetual motion hasn't been invented yet. Coal fired, natural gas fired, and atomic power plants -- that's where that power comes from, and a little from wind generators. Electricity isn't free and polution free. It is however, political when it comes to propulsion. Unless you are using LiPo batteries and highly efficient motors, your plan is not worth considering unless you boat on a very small lake and distance is not an issue. And even if that's the case, buy an electric trolling motor with maximizer circuitry (MinnKota-speak) and save yourself some trouble and money. Remember also that all of the Democratic politicians are running around with hybrid vehicles -- but only when it is opportunistic for them. They then hop around the world on their private aircraft and if you checked their garages you will find an SUV or other "gas guzzler" in there as well. Don't fall for the "world is going to hell because of our fuel use" crap. Point your finger at China, India, Korea, Pakistan, Iran and others who have stick stuff into the air and water then you can imagine. Look what people are being warned about for the olympic games!

 

[tassie ben]

Re: any info/opinon? -gas to electric conversions

Thanks for the replies so far,
i have done a bit more research just to show you guys what i found, here are some links that are particularly centered around achieving more guts than a trolling motor

http://www.ecyclemarine.com/eCycleOutboard.html
http://www.torqeedo.com/us/hn/products/cruise.html
http://www.rayeo.com/motors.htm
http://www.psnw.com/~jmrudholm/etekoutboard.html
http://www.qis.net/~jmgraham/resrun.htm
http://www.glen-l.com/designs/special/electricdrive.html

and this guys blog is great
http://www.sailnut.com/projects/eska_electra/

tashasdaddy** i was hoping to get a bit more guts than a trolling motor as i want to travel over the bay to the local national park, about a 15nm journey

wayne** check out the torqeedo site, they reckon they achieve the equivalent of a six horse, at a price $3800 AUD for a cruise and $1700 for the travel 801...the guy reckons i'll get 8kph out of that....the thing to remember i have been told is that traveling at half speed will get you vast increase in range than travelling full speed.

silvertip** I think i hit a nerve here? We can beat around the bush as we say here or we can cut right to the point. Fuel as we know it (petrol/diesel) is running out, electricity (mainly hydro powered here in tasmania) can also be sustainably produced(solar/wind..others not thought of yet)
The torqeedo website is the culprit for the figures i stated so you might be right, it could all be BS as they are selling an electric motor. An electric motor however will cost 10 times less to run than a combustion engine, it doesn't leak oil and exhaust oil into the ocean or lakes depending on your preference and an electric motor is around 45% efficient compared to our outboards at only 20% efficiency. Electric motors seem to be a wiser way to use energy.
and silvertip this is the best part about it!
It is virtually silent...who wouldn't want that?
Sorry i hit a nerve there, i did not intend to offend anyone who was not concerned about the environment

For everyones information i am not a seller or involved with a seller of electric motors in any way what so ever, i own a two stroke petrol powered outboard that may soon die. i am purely interested in a quieter way of travelling around my area..

anyone else please feel free to comment, its all interesting!

ben

 

[wbeaton]

Re: any info/opinon? -gas to electric conversions

The torqeedo is a 24V transom mount trolling motor, which is not in the original spirit of this posting. You asked about transforming an old outboard to electric. Traveling at 1/2 to 3/4 throttle is more energy efficient. Its called cruising speed and is the same for gas powered outboards as well. However, you are then only using 3-4 hp from a 6 hp. Is that enough to get you on plane? Will you be happy just slowly putting around the lake. If so, getting a large transom mount trolling mount and a couple batteries would be about the same. Getting a MinnKota 55-65 lbs motor with a couple batteries would be much cheaper than the route you are pursuing and provide something like 1 - 1.5 hp equivalent.

I can't say anything about Torqeedo's claim that its the equivalent of a 6 hp, but I can point out that it still wants (2) 200 AH batteries which is the same as (4) group 29 batteries. That's not really any different than the Briggs except the Briggs batteries would be easier to obtain. I did notice that the ecycle motor didn't actually provide any real specifications on their "printable specifications" page. Claims without numeric support are always a red flag for me especially when you see the size of the electric motor. The Ray seems to be about the most realistic motor shown, but only provides a max of 5 hp at 60V. I'd say take it all with a grain of salt.

I'm an environmental professional and general statments like "taking our outboards 5km is the same as taking 200 cars the same distance " is complete propaganda. That sort of statement is designed to erode confidence in old technology and inevitably lead to its demise. Consumerism is the environment's worst enemy, not old outboards.

 

[Silvertip]

Re: any info/opinon? -gas to electric conversions

No nerve was hit. I'm simply on the other side of the issue. As for dumping byproducts of combustion into the ocean, you don't seem concerned about dumping the byproducts of power generation into the air. Great if hydro power is the primary source where you are. It is not where I am. And I don't happen to subscribe to the world according to "Al Gore". He invented the internet you know. And to think some supposedly intelligent people gave him an award. Yikes.

 

[kenmyfam]

Re: any info/opinon? -gas to electric conversions

Interesting stuff but the 300lb weight penalty gets you a lot of gas powered outboard HP !!!! also how long will the battery banks last before they need to be replaced ?? You can also buy a lot of gas for the cost involved.
Personally unless you need a trolling motor like a lot of us do, the efficient electric outboard is still a long way away.
Just my opinion though.

 

[wbeaton]

Re: any info/opinon? -gas to electric conversions

also how long will the battery banks last before they need to be replaced ??

Depends on too many factors. Anywhere from 1-10 years.

 

[TerryMSU]

Re: any info/opinon? -gas to electric conversions

6hp is 4476 watts is 186 amps. Thus your 200 amp-hour batteries will run the boat for about 1 hour. You will need very large cables to handle 200 amps. (00 or 0000) size. I doubt that this is a true 6HP motor. (It looks too small for a 6HP electric motor.) It claims to have the thrust of a 6HP motor, but I do not see any proof of this comparision.

TerryMSU

 

[kenmyfam]

Re: any info/opinon? -gas to electric conversions

Going to stick with what I have for the time being. Water skiing and tubing by electric power seem a long way away right now !!!!!

 

[tx1961whaler]

Re: any info/opinon? -gas to electric conversions

I'll bite on this one:
Why do some people instantly assume that someone concerned with the environment is a Democrat? Or, conversely, that someone not concerned with the environment is a Republican? Does one drink ALL of the Kool-aid when they identify themselves with a political party?
Just wondering......

 

[wbeaton]

Re: any info/opinon? -gas to electric conversions

Lets keep this about electric motors and leave the polictics out of it.

 

[tmcalavy]

Re: any info/opinon? -gas to electric conversions

Thanks for posting those links. Electric power might be just the thing on small lakes/ponds in some situations. I can't seem to wean myself from the smell of oil/gas and hypoid oil...not to mention pretty gals on water skis.

 

[steelespike]

Re: any info/opinon? -gas to electric conversions

Electric is really not pratical for planing speeds. However it does work well
in a boat designed for displacement speeds,about 6 mph.I would say most
don't have the patience to run that slow.Excellent range is possible and of course vertually silent.Electric does put the polution source at a single more controllable point.A fuel cell may be the ideal technology.

 

[imported]

Re: any info/opinon? -gas to electric conversions

I have been researching and thinking of the whole climate change issue and the relationship it has to me and my little johnson 6hp. I have seen a couple of sites with projects whereby someone has taken off their powerhead and replaced it with an adapter plate and an electric motor.

I say go for it. What do you have to loose except some money and some of your time.

This hole transformation from gas to another source of running our engines has to start someplace. Electric may not be the entire answer but what you/we learn as we try may lead us a little close to what is.

Thats how we will solve this issue. Little steps.

Oh and if you do decide to do it. Post lots of pic for us to see.

Be well..

Ray

 

[tassie ben]

Re: any info/opinon? -gas to electric conversions

Hi all, i have not replied as my partner and i had our baby last week!! What an amazing thing!!

On with the forum however..

I'm an environmental professional and general statments like "taking our outboards 5km is the same as taking 200 cars the same distance " is complete propaganda. That sort of statement is designed to erode confidence in old technology and inevitably lead to its demise. Consumerism is the environment's worst enemy, not old outboards.

I truly believe that wbeaton has hit the nail on the head in the later part of this quote, consumerism etc. but to add, fuel in the form of electricity is going to be the future unless another source rears its head. We are now and will be able to in the future produce electricity sustainably (not totally of course) from renewable resources. This has to be the way to go. And, we will need to be able to convert our old forms of machines to the new source in a cost effective way, hence the original post.

Why do some people instantly assume that someone concerned with the environment is a Democrat? Or, conversely, that someone not concerned with the environment is a Republican? Does one drink ALL of the Kool-aid when they identify themselves with a political party?

we should keep political parties out of this but the drift whaler is getting at is worth comment..we all subscribe to "a club" of political thinking no mater what it is and when the ethos of that club is questioned we get defensive. Some "clubs" have a vested financial interest in the use of certain fuels and resources and the retailing delivery of these. When we join "a club" we don't necessarily know or are told of how deep our "clubs" fingers are in the pie.
I think it is important to understand that the two or more clubs are really not that different at the top of the tree. They are different at the roots (community level) which is where the reigning power of the club that wins is decided....i think everyone is understanding. So, where we all can make a change is at the roots...don't wait for your "club" to make the change to help the environment, because they never will do as much as what we can do ourselves on the ground.

I just got my outboard running finally after buying it with my dinghy, it was corroded in the water pump and seized in the steering but is now a new being!! So i will be using it until it dies...but when it does, i'm going to buy an electric motor to convert it and i'll post the project so others can do the same when theirs die. A fact of our fuel being a resource that is dissapearing will force us to make change eventually so why don't we start thinking now. This change will no doubt result in humans being unable to travel as far as we have been used to, a fact of our changing world...

any other comment??

p.s. to the other replies, thankyou and yes i can relate to the addiction of speed and oil smells too...i think we are all in the same club essentially. WE ALL LOVE TO TRAVEL ON THE WATER!!

 

[Silvertip]

Re: any info/opinon? -gas to electric conversions

This from the MinnKota web site regarding HP and thrust

FAQ ? General
How does thrust compare to horsepower?
Horsepower is a measurement of ?work? being performed.
One horsepower is a unit of measurement equal to 550 foot pounds of ?work? per second. There is no direct correlation of thrust to horsepower. Contrary to what you may have been told, fifteen pounds of thrust DOES NOT equal one horsepower. As noted in the previous definition, thrust is simply a static measurement of force.

Comment: Even if the 15# figure was accurate, a 6 HP outboard would then need to be converted to electric power that provided 90# of thrust. That puts one in the 36V trolling motor category so three large deep cycles minimum are required using todays technology. LiPo batteries would work well as they can be discharged at rates up to 25 times their capacity. Unfortunately they are a fire hazard if punctured, would cost a small fortune, and the cells must be balanced or the pack is ruined. The charger would also be terribly expensive. The only hope I see for electric boat power in the near future is fuel cell.

 

[tassie ben]

Re: any info/opinon? -gas to electric conversions

I think you maybe right, do you think hydrogen? or some other solution..as we know hydrogen itself can be a fire hazard. The way i see it, if you just want a lesiure craft then the weight can be accounted for as you are just carrying people and some gear but for a commercial operation you have to factor the weight more so.
That said, submarines can only go underwater with electric motors for obvious reasons and that is a commercial operation (of sorts).

The horsepower versus thrust i was aware of, the 15 pound per .1 horsepower is an approximation only the way i see it. One way to correlate is to use kW as both combustion and electric motors can be described using kW.
Any more thoughts??

 

[benwelch]

Gas to Electric Cconversions for small outboard Check out this power house...my plan

Gas to Electric Cconversions for small outboard Check out this power house...my plan

Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries seem to be best for boating applications.
Lots of power without the danger of explosion, etc.


10 hp Permanent Magnet Motor Generator PMG Manta ideas 10 hp motor DC 8 hp electric 5 hp electric controller Dual Bicycle Project gokarts kart
10HP Manta DC motor

I will remove the power head from my 1998 Mercury 15hp 2-stroke outboard (kicker for my Catalina 25) and replace it
with the Manta high-power DC motor, with a homespun controller (built by me....) The key to success in this
conversion is cooling the motor which does not thrive at temps over 125F. I will use a battery powered leaf blower, chopped/adapted to flush air in/out of the stock mercury engine housing. The blower will be triggered by a thermostat, so it does not run all the time. Cruising at half speed, etc. should bring no heat issues (IMHO), but slamming at full throttle, so to speak will make the Manta heat up.

Thatz my 1.8 cents

Good boating, y'all

Ben

here is a pic of a simpler conversion with no motor cover. you can get the idea