1984 85hp Force #1 no spark

[raenglehart]

Well first thing. I was already registered as "raenglehart" and could log in, but had no option to reply to posts or start new posts. So, I registered again as "raenglehart1". Maybe I was inactive for too long, I don't know. Anyhow on to the issue:

Got myself for next to nothing a 1984 Bayliner Bass trophy with a 1984 85 HP Chrysler Force outboard. Nothing worked...long story short, I have everything fucntioning now and am down to one frustrating bit: No spark on cyl #1.Here's what's been done so far:

1) swapped coil packs around to see if problem went with it and problem always moved (replaced coil pack) #1 = NO FIX
2) swapped CDM's around and problem moved with (replaced CDM #1) = NO FIX
3) Disco'd each white kill wire one at a time to check diode in opposite CDM = NO CHANGE
4) Checked for 180VDC+ on yellow/blue wires and DVA ohms checked= everything in tolerance
5) Checked DVA voltage and ohms on stator and trigger = within tolerance IAW troubleshooting manual
6) Checked power @ each output for CDM-to-coil pack (red wires and orange wires for each pack). #1 cylinder is next to nothing compared to other feeds (can't remember the exact reading-left my notes in the workshop)
7) Exhausted troubleshooting pages in the service manual I bought from the iboat site (fantastic manual btw)
I tried today to remove the flywheel to check the stator/trigger magnets, but my dang flywheel puller was too big.

On a sidenote, while fixing all electronics on the boat before getting to the motor, the ingition switch, kill switch, all switches were replaced with new ones and all wiring is verified connected correctly. I have fuel and 130-145 PSI compression on each cylinder. I know I am overlooking something silly obvious, but am just chasing my tail in circles now. I've never worked on an outboard before, but consider myself pretty mechanically savvy and am an aircraft electrician by trade....tackle/fix cars, quads, anything with a motor and never been defeated until now!!!

What am I missing fella's? I've spent the better part of today reading virtually every post similiar to my issue and seems I've done everything so far. I know it is going to be something stupid easy and figure it time to step away for a while and look for outside advice.

Now, why is my old registered ID not allowing me to post. I would prefer to keep that one instead of this new one admin's.

Thanks in advance for any assistance.

Roger

 

[pnwboat]

Re: 1984 85hp Force #1 no spark

Check the trigger wires for #1 cylinder. Disconnect one side, it should be 48 - 52 ohms. Look at the spade lug connector. Does it have a short piece of black heat shrink that covers the crimp/solder joint on the lug that is connected to the terminal strip? Remove the heat shrink and check the wires. Sometimes the wire will break at this spot but you can't tell because the heat shrink holds the wire to the spade lug connector. Also seen where the wire was not completely broken free. There was one single strand of wire making the connection. Good enough to OHM out OK, but not good enough to pass a consistent trigger signal to the CD modules. At least that's what it appeared to be because after I repaired it, that cylinder began to fire.

 

[raenglehart]

Re: 1984 85hp Force #1 no spark

I'll pull the heat-shrink and check that. I know what you mean with those things. I have had that many times when fixing airplanes......chasing an illusive problem for days. As for checking the trigger Ohms, guess I forgot to mention that originally. I have checked both and they were within the 48-55 tolerance (I think both were 51 & 52 respectively if I remember correctly--my notes are all in the workshop).

I'll pull the heat-shrink and cross my finger.

Thanks for the advice.

 

[raenglehart]

Re: 1984 85hp Force #1 no spark

Well, continued on it today. Finally got the flywheel off (which is a PitA!!! without the right flywheel puller). Cleaned the flywheel magnet, trigger contacts, stator contacts (everything in there). With everything removed, I re-ohmed checked the trigger wires while moving/bending, etc and it all were solid:

Red wire - White w/green stripe = 50.9 ohms
Orange wire - green wire = 51.1 ohms
2nd orange wire - green wire = 51.0 ohms

Everything was quite rusty, so I was cautiously optimistic when I put it all back together. But ALAS, still same same! No spark @ #1.

I removed and cleaned all terminal block wires @ the engine terminal block and rectifier. Did as PNWBOAT suggested and removed that heat-shrink on the terminal connections to check for broken stands/corrosion, etc.

Any other ideas guys?

 

[pnwboat]

Re: 1984 85hp Force #1 no spark

Disconnect the wires at the terminal strip from the CD Module for #3 cylinder that go to the stator and kill switch. See if you now get spark to #1 cylinder.

 

[raenglehart]

Re: 1984 85hp Force #1 no spark

Did that as well pnwboat (see #3) from first post. I talked to a couple local boats guys today who were referred to me on a local forum. After going over everything I've done and all my readings, he and I are back to the trigger. Even though it all ohms good, what else could it be? So I ordered one today and will keep my fingers crossed. I'll be certain to update y'all when I get the part installed.

Thanks again pnwboat for your quick responses.

 

[raenglehart]

Re: 1984 85hp Force #1 no spark

Sorry guys, I forgot to mention earlier the Force 85hp serial number for my motor is: 856X4L

 

[pnwboat]

Re: 1984 85hp Force #1 no spark

Do you have the modular connectors on your stator and trigger assy.? Seems like I recall a situation where the connecters were either modified to work or they were connected wrong. Just brainstorming here.

 

[raenglehart]

Re: 1984 85hp Force #1 no spark

Yes sir, I do have the round quick disconnect type connectors. Also, I bit the bullet after talking to a local boat motor expert and bought a Trigger Assy. I installed the new trigger assy and all be damned -- still have the same problem. Nothing has changed. I ohmed checked the new trigger assy and ensured I had 48-55 ohms (all were right on 50-51 ohms)....removed flywheel for the umpteenth time and cleaned/inspected everything (flywheel, trigger, stator, magnets)

W T Falker?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

I am exhausted. Anyone want to bring some cold ones and marshmallows/hot-dogs because I am about to have a large bonfire with this thing.

 

[pnwboat]

Re: 1984 85hp Force #1 no spark

Several things to double check. Make sure the ground wire for number 1 coil is not pinched and making good contact with the coil mounting plate. Make sure the ground wire from the coil mounting plate to the block is making good contact.

Only other thing that I can think....and this is just a guess. You have a bad CD module (second one that fires coil #3). The bad module actually fires the plug(s), but it prevents the good module from working correctly.

 

[raenglehart]

Re: 1984 85hp Force #1 no spark

Well pnwboat,

I have re-done starting from square Numero Uno.....and still at the same result. I did change out the #3 cyl CDM for S-n-G's. No luck. The only thing I have not changed (only shot thru with a meter) is the stator. it visually looks just fine and shoots fine with the meter. is it possible that that could be my culprit? I know that generates the power to the CDM's as well as to charge the battery (via the rectifier), so do I throw another $100 or so at it and cross my fingers? What do you think?

 

[pnwboat]

Re: 1984 85hp Force #1 no spark

I think you'd be wasting your money. Take a really close look at the modular trigger connections. I think that if they are reversed, that is going to the wrong CD module, it will give the symptoms you describe. #1 CD module (fires #1 & #2 cylinder) should have the trigger cable with 4 wires going to it. #2 CD module (fired #3 cylinder) should have trigger cable with just 2 wires going to it.

 

[raenglehart]

Re: 1984 85hp Force #1 no spark

Yeah, tell me about it. I have felt that way about 3 parts ago now....lol. As for the trigger connectors I have flopped them around back and forth in the beginning (before I knew anything about this type motor). before knowing what the heck I was doing I had swapped connectors around several times while troubleshooting (coil packs, CDM's, etc). Once I got my manual with wiring diagram, I went back and re-connected per the diagram. I'm not currently at the motor, but what you say, I believe is the way it is connected per the diagram now.

I'm to the point that I either find another motor (which ain't cheap) or pay someone to try and fix it. But from talking to a local 30+ year experience outboard guy, even he is perplexed at my dilemma.

Several months ago I passed on the opportunity to buy an identical motor running (so he said) for $300. But didn't do it because at that point I had no even gotten to trying to fix the motor on this project. Did I mention that I bought this boat as a non-running, non-working anything basket case last winter? I have been stuck on this final thing (#1 no spark) for 3 months now. I kick myself in the backside for not getting that motor at such a steal. I've not again come across anything even close to that sorta price.

 

[pnwboat]

Re: 1984 85hp Force #1 no spark

I know exactly how you feel. I would double check the wiring only us a different diagram.

Reminds me of a friend of mine that was a Chevy Corviar collector (don't ask me why). He knew Corvairs inside and out. He asked me to help him pick up a Corvair that someone had completely restored, inside and out, rebuilt engine etc. The car would turn over but wouldn't start. The owner was completely fed up with it and was selling it. We showed up with a trailer to haul it away. My friend paid the owner with cash and the owner handed the title and keys over to him. My buddy opened the back end to look at the motor. Next thing I knew he was messing around with the plug wires on the distributor. He jumped into the drivers seat and cranked it up and it started! The manual that the previous owner was using showed the wrong firing order for the plug wires on the distributor! Anyways, my buddy offered to give the car back but I think the owner was so fed up with it he declined.

I've seen several mistakes on the wiring diagrams for these motors. I suspect that you may be the victim of something like this. I could be wrong but at this point, I think it's worth checking out.

 

[raenglehart]

Re: 1984 85hp Force #1 no spark

Yup.....that's how it will end up when I have to pay someone to come out and look at this thing........and then I will set the thing on fire just out of spite....lol. Do you know of any other sources for wiring diagrams besides the manual I bought from iBoat? (SELOC Marine Repair Manual).

 

[pnwboat]

Re: 1984 85hp Force #1 no spark

I have both the SELOC and CLYMER manuals. The factory manuals are the best and available on EBAY periodically. I prefer the factory manuals (if available), then the Clymer. I rarely use the SELOC any more. I see the Clymer manuals on EBAY pretty much on a regular basis.

 

[Aggitated]

Re: 1984 85hp Force #1 no spark

Just a quick note raenglhart1 CDI electronics has some great info on-line. They allso have tech support that number is 1-866-423-4832.

They helped me quite a bit, and have wiring digrams avaiable on-line as well.

 

[raenglehart]

Re: 1984 85hp Force #1 no spark

Thanks Aggitated for the info. I have downloaded a few troubleshooting guides from CDI (which is where I started months ago actually--before having any clue as to what I was doing). They do have great info, but can't say I've tried their tech support. May have to give 'em a call. I had a guy local come out today (30+ years outboard and I/O experience). He went thru everything starting from square one (my first post). Even he is stumped on this one. The only component that has not been replaced that deals with trigger voltage is the flywheel itself. They are hard to find (obsolete from dealers). eBay has a few, but they look pretty ratty as well.

One thing I've not found any info on is how strong the trigger magnet on the flywheel should be. Still doesn't quite answer the #1 no spark, but #2 & #3 good spark deal even if it were weak somehow. Maybe CDI Tech's have that answer.

I haven't come across another used motor for a decent price lately either as at this point that is where I'm headed.

 

[Aggitated]

Re: 1984 85hp Force #1 no spark

Have you tried moving coil and C.D, modules around. Also another thing a mechanic told me to do with my misfiring 85' was to put her in the water and run at night, that way any spark loss would be quite evident and easy to see. Sometimes the trigger wies will break inside the casing,at the trigger where they are moving all the time. Hard to spot. I had a red trigger wire that was wore almost into, and was barely visiable even with the trigger off the motor. Hang in there I feel your pain, I've been working on my 85 for the last three months now, pain in the you know what but it ain't gonna whip me. It's just a motor put together by man...lol I'd go back and syart moving stuff around try and see if you can move the problem to another cyl, it will help isolate the paty that isn;t working. Hope I've helped keep us informed, and don't get the marshmellows yet. D.W.H.

 

[raenglehart]

Re: 1984 85hp Force #1 no spark

If it even ran, I would do that Aggitated. As I said in my previous postings. Replaced Trigger Assy, Both CDM's, #1 Coil Pack (also used original parts in other spots and they all worked fine (CDM and Coil Packs that is).

Only thing left in the trigger system is the flywheel itself. Those are hard to find unless I want to throw $300 at the old motor. Hell, I will just find another motor before wasting that much money on it. eBay has a few, but they look pretty ratty. I'm all but done with this thing. If I don't find another motor soon, it'll be FOR SALE (as is).