1910 trophy Bayliner

fisheymikey

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I have been reviewing a lot of the hull repairs of these boats but I was wondering which epoxy to use?

is it polyester resin or regular epoxy

huge difference in price

thanks
 

Woodonglass

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It's not always just about the Dollars and Cents!! What is the project? That can make a huge difference in which kind of resin to use. Each has it's place. Poly is good for general repairs. Epoxy can be useful when added strength or need for slow work times and good adhesive qualities are a must. It's a good idea to give us an idea of what the application will be so we can guide you to the best product to use.;)
 
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Arawak

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I have been reviewing a lot of the hull repairs of these boats but I was wondering which epoxy to use?

is it polyester resin or regular epoxy

huge difference in price

You can do a good job of repairing your boat with either polyester resin or with epoxy resin. What sort of repair are you planning?

Probably more folks here prefer polyester for two reasons, cost and gelcoat compatibility. I prefer epoxy because it is much superior to polyester and vinylester in every mechanical aspect, it has little or no VOCs, and IMO is easier to work with.

BTW, entire flame wars have been fought over this topic on this and many other boat forums. :flame:

Gelcoat is generally considered not to bond well to epoxy. This has been disputed, and many have done it with satisfactory results, but many more have reported failure. I have used gelcoat over epoxy without failure on small repairs. YMMV.

Epoxy is more expensive for sure, but consider that 6.6 gallons of it (at US Composites) is $290 and 5 gallons of polyester is $160. I've done transom and stringers in a 12' boat with 6 gallons of epoxy, so the difference in resin there would have been less than $100 after I paid $40 for another gallon of polyester.

In general, you will use less epoxy to do the same repair in most cases. In order to make polyester work as a glue, you need chopped strand matting, which soaks up a lot of resin. To make epoxy a glue, you add cheap fillers like wood flour.

Polyester resins contain styrene and other chemicals that are dangerous to your health. You need a well ventilated area to use this stuff, and you should use a respirator. Check the MSDS for various resins. I see there are now low VOC polyester resins... I have not used them but others may speak to this.


Epoxy is both stronger in tension and compression and more flexible than polyester. Flexibility is important because polyester will fail long before the glass fibers do whereas epoxy's stretch before failure is much closer to the glass. Epoxy is an adhesive on its own, polyester is not.

It's much more resistant to water than polyester although neither are truly waterproof. Submerge both under water for a few weeks and weigh them, you see that poly picks up a lot more weight than the epoxy.

You can store epoxy for ages. Polyester gives you a couple months. Vinylester is even worse.

Epoxy is pretty easy to use. Get the mix ratio right, and it will pretty much always cure correctly. It's much more tolerant of lower temperatures than polyester... instead of failing it will usually just take longer if it's too cold. You do need to pay attention to the ratio... I use a digital food scale to mix my epoxy and have *never* had a failure.

It's usually a bit more viscous than polyester, making it sometimes harder to wet out thick cloth, but usually you aren't using thick cloth with it anyway.

It will not set up to a sandable hardness as quickly as polyester. Using fast hardener for epoxy will and "juicing" poly with extra MEKP will make both resins more brittle.

You cleanup uncured polyester with acetone. Epoxy with vinegar. Vinegar is better for you, unless you're a cucumber ;)

All that said, most consumer boat manufacturers use polyester because it's cheap and good enough. If you follow the correct methods you can do a perfectly fine boat repair, better than new in most cases, with polyester. You (and I) have a Bayliner so you're already accustomed to "good enough" :)

I would not suggest you use this or any other post on this thread as your sole basis for a decision. There are lots of resources available for you to research. There is/was a fellow posting here and elsewhere under the name ondarvr who has a lot of practical experience on the subject, it's worth considering his opinions. Google Books has many books on composite materials that have good data onthe topic. West Systems publishes a lot of data on the subject... some like to discount it because they sell epoxy, but their methods are sound.
 
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kcassells

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Ok OK... never heard the vinegar on epoxy clean up. Can you expand on that for me a little. Thanks....Always learning! I always used Acetone on my epoxy and that ain't Cheap either!
 

Arawak

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Acetone is not good stuff for your body. It can be absorbed into your bloodstream through skin contact and then your liver has to deal with it. Everyone knows that livers are meant to deal with Appleton 21yr old rum and Red Stripe, not acetone :)

I just buy a large jug of picking vinegar and use it like I used to use acetone. Although, other than a laminating roller, the only cleanup I usually need is if I get it on my hands. I generally use dollar store brushes and rollers, which are discarded, and cured epoxy peels off plastic spreaders easily.

As a bonus, it's cheaper too, and easy to discard safely.

I should mention that you don't want to soak metal tools in it for any length of time... it is an acid and will corrode the metal. Just rinse with water after.
 
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fisheymikey

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wow thanks for the replies!!

this is going to be the same deal like you did Arawak. did you get my PM?

I will be redoing my stringers. I got a few friends committed to help. we are going to takle this job during winter and work in a garage thus epoxy is going to be most likely the choice.

the supplier for my epoxy or poly told me to make sure what kind of resin was before because the bond between Poly or epoxy is not recommended

thanks
 

Woodonglass

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Here's the general rule...Epoxy will stick to just about anything except some of the fancy "Slick" plastics but Poly doesn't like to stick to Epoxy but WILL adhere quite nicely to Other poly based products as long as they are prepped properly.

On another note, fisheymikey, I'd like to invite you to "PIN" youself on our Members Map in the Sticky Section of the Restoration Forum. That way the rest of us would know where you are and if we're ever in your area we could drop by a mooch some coffee off'n ya!!!!;):D
 
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Arawak

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I'm going to assume your boat is just a bigger version of mine.

So, I think the first thing you're going to have to figure out is how to get the cap off. As you can see from my thread, we built a frame for this and used chain hoists to lift it up. Take this step seriously, it's *heavy*.

You'll want to remove the motor, the console, and as many cables as you can first. It's possible to leave the console in place, if you have a good enough lifting system.

Next, take off the rubrail. Start by removing the rubber strip, and then you have to drill the rivets out. In theory, this should be easy, but some eediat used steel rivets on mine, which was a huge PITA.

You'll have to disconnect all the hoses and wiring that connect the two halves before separating.

After the cap comes off, you're looking at the tearout. Make sure you have the hull well supported before you start this... once the stringers and bulkheads are out the hull will be floppy and could lose its shape. Mine is resting on the floor, with 2x4s supporting the hull under where the stringers were, plus some supports holding the sides in place.

The tearout will probably takes the most amount of time, and you will likely find things you don't want to. Again, assuming your boat is the same as mine...

Tank needs to come out. This sounds easy, but for me it took a bit of work to cut out the glass holding it in place. Clean it well and inspect. If it's pitted badly you'll probably want to replace it. You really don't want to have to fix a leaking tank in a couple years. If you're in salt water, you may wish to sand it down and paint it with coal tar epoxy before you put it back.

I'd start by using a drill to take samples of your stringers and transom. Most likely you will find rot spots in the transom, especially close to any transom penetrations. The top of the transom on mine was not sealed in any way, and so it was starting to rot there too. I don't ever want to have to open this boat up again, so I replaced mine. In fact, I removed all the wood.

You're going to have to remove the foam. Most likely it's soaked anyway, but either way it's in the way. Don't try to do a perfect job, you will get rid of the sticky bits when you remove the old tabbing. Sawzall, square blade spade, etc

Now, you'll cut the stringers and bulkheads out. I used a sawzall and just cut them close to the hull. There's a lot of tabbing so you shouldn't have to worry too much about damaging the hull. Once I could see the blade on either side of the stringer it just followed the hull nicely.


Use a chisel or whatever to pop the bits of stringer out. Now comes the fun part. Polyester fiberglass is often not too hard to delaminate when it has been laid up after the hull cures. rather than grinding this stuff down, use a flat wrecking bar sort of like this one to get between the hull and the tabbing. You might need a large chisel to get it started, but mine just needed a couple whacks with my hand. You'll see the colour change when it delaminates. You should be able to get the vast majority of the old CSM tabbing out of the boat this way. You're left with CSM fuzz, which I think the guys here call monkey fur. This stuff you will need to sand out.

Note that the chines are filled with strips of pine or something, and glassed over. I removed this, and plan to replace with foam. You might be able to leave it in place on yours.

I'll pause, as this is currently about as far as I have gotten. I'd expect this to take you 6 to 8 weeks, if you're doing it on weekends and the occasional weeknight.

Eventually, you will have the hull all prepped and ready to receive new stringers. I would fabricate these out of two layers of 1/2" plywood. You should do some research to decide what type and grade you want to use. I used G1S fir plywood from Home Depot, having dug through the stacks to find the best pieces. If XL fir marine ply is available to you, you might consider that.

Woodonglass has a link in his signature that shows you how to lay up stringers. Polyester or epoxy, it's essentially the same. You do not need CSM for epoxy, so rather than the 1708 you would use 12oz or 18oz double bias (45/45) without matting. Another good resource is the Howto section at bateau.com

Say two more weeks to make your stringers and tab them in.

Then you'll want to cover the stringers with plywood to make new foam compartments. Make sure you lay down at least 4oz of cloth over the plywood if it's softwood or else it will eventually check, absorb water, and put you back to square one. If you use hardwood marine ply you can put two coats of epoxy and save the cloth, but it's probably not cost effective.

Search this site for threads where guys are putting foam in. I've never done this myself, so you'd best follow their lead. But hopefully I'll be foaming before you, so if there are any Bayliner specific gotchas I'll find them first. :)

Maybe another 2-3 weeks for this.

After that... I guess it's just putting the tank and everything else back in the reverse order. I'm hoping 2 weeks or so.

Hope this helps.
 

kcassells

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Acetone is not good stuff for your body. It can be absorbed into your bloodstream through skin contact and then your liver has to deal with it. Everyone knows that livers are meant to deal with Appleton 21yr old rum and Red Stripe, not acetone :)
I just buy a large jug of picking vinegar and use it like I used to use acetone. Although, other than a laminating roller, the only cleanup I usually need is if I get it on my hands. I generally use dollar store brushes and rollers, which are discarded, and cured epoxy peels off plastic spreaders easily.
As a bonus, it's cheaper too, and easy to discard safely.
I should mention that you don't want to soak metal tools in it for any length of time... it is an acid and will corrode the metal. Just rinse with water after.


Wow!!! That's Great Info! Thank you very much!
 

fisheymikey

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thanks so much great info!!

Yes my boat is the same as yours Awark but mine is 18.5

so I have read there is different kind of polY's

ii have n=been informed of ISo and Ortho Polys are not the same. im getting a high end ISO supposed to be the best of poly's and the guy has all kinds of different product but told me like Awark said epoxy does have a mixing and curing issue.

getting a good price for Iso 193$ for a 5gallon. the guy is a pro fiberglass guy and seen his work and pretty impressed with his work.

is Iso better or he is full of Sh@t

thanks

Ps changed my profile!

would love someone to mouch of coffee even food for some help
 
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rotozuk

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I know I am a newbie here, but I am not new to fiberglass and resins. I think some of the information in this thread is very poor.

If anyone thinks epoxy is safer to use because it does not have that horrible of a smell, you are kidding yourself. The good thing about polyester and vinylester resins is that they stink, and will get your head spinning if used in a closed area. This forces many people to use an outside air mask, or at least a strong fan. Epoxy users often times don't feel any effects from epoxy outgasses and will happily work in an enclosed area with it. It is still very toxic, but it can take some time to do its damage to the human body. Often times the first sign of epoxy poisoning is feeling sick, might even land you in the hospital. Often times the source of the illness goes unidentified. Once feeling better you go back to your project and open some epoxy up and you may not survive it. Your body loses all ability to tolerate any more exposure to epoxy. (This can takes years or decades, and it occasionally kills in a lot less time.)

When using any resins, if you are getting direct skin contact with liquid resin, you are doing a **** poor job of taking care of yourself. Keep the stuff off your skin and out of your lungs.

I never mix resins types, but I come from an aircraft background. If the boat has polyester, stay with a polyester, and do some small samples to confirm adhesion. You do not want to rely on only a mechanical bond. (rough surface) (simple test, glue down some glass, and have a scrap of plastic or duct tape under half of the sample. Let it cure, now peel off that part that had the plastic under it, and see if you can peel off the rest of the sample. If you can peel it off, try a different resin!

Simple way to know if you have an epoxy hull, grind into the fiberglass. If it smells like BO, then you have an Epoxy hull (VERY rare), but if it smells more like plastic, then you have either polyester or vinylester.

Each resin type has advantages and disadvantages. Most boat companies use vinylester resins for very good reasons. It is easy to work with, it has excellent qualities and usually does well against heat and long term storage. I like to think of it as having good balance of features of the other resin types.

With the above said, it is hard to lump any one type of resin into a single set of characteristics. There can be vast differences in a family of epoxies all from the same company. I deal with a US brand that offers about 2,000 different adhesives. I eyes glaze over when reading all the different specialty types available, and that is one companies offerings. When I am looking for something special, I usually call them and let them make a suggestion. Sometimes this means I will be passed to different people in the company to get the right stuff.

Hope this might help some.

-Wayne
 

Rickmerrill

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fishymikey the guys not full of it. The ISO polyester will work fine for replacing your stringers and deck.
 

Woodonglass

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Uhmm Last time I checked most boat mfg's were still using Poly resin to build their boats!!! 5 gallons of Poly from USC is $125 + $26 for HazMat + shipping.
 

fisheymikey

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ok awesome!

ok im still going to read around but now with the latst info I have im leaning towards the Iso poly.

ortho Poly is good enough but the price im paying 193 I like the extra strength and adhesion of the ISo. the company is Aropol 7334t

if anyone has work with this stuff let me know.

have been youtubing and researching im feeling more and more confident to tackle the job

Thanks guys I will be taking pics and showing progress just need to close off all contracts and customers.

thanks
 

Woodonglass

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You might want to consider Vinyl Ester resin. It's the BEST of both worlds. Performs Like epoxy. But works and lays up like Poly. Price is about $250 per 5gallon pail DELIVERED to the Midwest That includes Hazmat and shipping costs!! I've been doing significant research on VE lately and I'm pretty sure if I do another Major restoration I'll be using VE for the build. It's just that good!!!:D;) It will cost the average boat builder and xtra $200 bucks in total resin costs (if you use 20 gals of resin) but save you prolly $750 to $1,000 over Epoxy.
 
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Rickmerrill

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What helps us visual learners is watching somebody do it. If you haven't seen friscoboater videos yet they are good and help with the confidence.
 

Arawak

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Many of the things we use in boat repair and building (resin, glues, foams, etc) present health concerns and need to be used safely. We should always take the appropriate precautions, which are are pretty much always clearly laid out on the containers or in data sheets that come with them.

If anyone thinks epoxy is safer to use because it does not have that horrible of a smell, you are kidding yourself.

No one mentioned the smell. Simple google search will get you the MSDS for pretty much any product you want to use and demonstrate the difference. A sample of some typical epoxy and poly MSDSs:

West System 105 resin MSDS
West System 205 Hardener MSDS

Aropol K 1905-24 Iso Polyester Resin
MEKP

There's a reason why shipping companies charge a hazmat fee for polyester and not for epoxy. Hazmat as in "hazardous material" as in more dangerous than other stuff.

Epoxy emits very few volatiles. A small percentage of people can develop an allergic reaction through repeated skin exposure. You would have to be working in a -very- enclosed space at a reasonably high temperature before you would get anything close to the amount of VOCs you'd get working in your garage with polyester (or vinylester).

Polyester resin contains styrene and you catalyze it with MEKP. Much nastier.

Epoxy users often times don't feel any effects from epoxy outgasses and will happily work in an enclosed area with it. It is still very toxic, but it can take some time to do its damage to the human body. Often times the first sign of epoxy poisoning is feeling sick, might even land you in the hospital. Often times the source of the illness goes unidentified. Once feeling better you go back to your project and open some epoxy up and you may not survive it. Your body loses all ability to tolerate any more exposure to epoxy. (This can takes years or decades, and it occasionally kills in a lot less time.)

Can you provide some evidence to substantiate this?

You do not want to rely on only a mechanical bond.

How do you get anything else over top of 25 year old cured fiberglass?

Most boat companies use vinylester resins for very good reasons.

Pretty sure that most low to mid level manufacturers still use polyester. High end manufacturers tend to use use epoxy (and exotic fibers).

It is easy to work with, it has excellent qualities and usually does well against heat and long term storage.

Promoted vinylester (which is what you are likely to buy) typically has even shorter storage life than polyester.


And, to be very clear:

Not questioning vinylester is better than polyester in most respects.

Not disagreeing that all the chemicals we use are potential harmful and appropriate precautions should be taken.

Not disagreeing that you can rebuild your boat with any of the three resins, in safety, if you follow the precautions appropriate to the product.
 

Woodonglass

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Hey fisheymikey, where are you located? Are you doing a Full "Gut" job on your Boat? (Transom, Deck, Stringers)
 

kcassells

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FisheyMikey,
I'm using Epoxy on my project...I think the Budweiser's have a worse affect though. Thought you should be aware. I read the msds.
Seems like you getting a plan made up. So which way ya heading?
 
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