88 Bayliner Trophy 1710 - wet foam and ...?

[Arawak]

The tank was held in place with some CSM lapped over it. I cut that out, but so far no luck wiggling the tank out. It's a pretty tight fit in there, so not sure if it's just jamming in place, or somehow fastened. Surely they wouldn't have glued it down... would they?

Once I get it out, I'll clean it, and do a pressure test. It actually looks pretty good. Was thinking I should sand, prime, and paint it with coal tar epoxy, but maybe that's only needed for saltwater boats.

 

[Arawak]

Tank is out.

 

[Arawak]

Ok, so this was totally unexpected.... I started drilling the stringers to see what the condition of the wood was... and found foam! To my knowledge Bayliner did not use foam filled stringers until 10 years later. But drilling into each of the stringers in different place shows yellow foam, not wood shaving.

So, not sure if I lucked out, or if this is a complication. I have no experience with foam stringers. What does the foam even do... it can't provide that much structural support... is it just something to lay the glass over?

As noted earlier, even if I don't have to replace them, there is one place where there is delamination. I'll have to grind that down and repair it at a minimum.

 

[Rickmerrill]

Weird. The foam would act as a mold. The laminate thickness is increased to replace the strength of a solid core like wood. Can you give an estimate of the laminate thickness?

 

[kcassells]

Yup does seem weird. The top of all those stringer look like wood. maybe po did some mods and filled it out with foam.

 

[zool]

when the factory laid the stringer grids into the hulls, they werent always contoured to the hull, you may be drilling into the foam that filled under the voids, which could be inches high.....have you drilled down from the top of a stringer?....just a thought.

 

[Arawak]

Come to think of it, it was pretty thick drilling through. At least 1/8" I'd say. I'll have a better look on Tuesday night when I go back.

The wood on top is from the plywood that was glued to it to for the top of the compartments. Nothing really rests on these compartments, the floor in the cap/tub is self supporting, and rests on the bulkhead.

This looks like original work... I wouldn't absolutely swear to it, but the colour of the cured glass is consistent throughout the hull.

 

[Rickmerrill]

That's a good idea Zool has. I'd try that next.

 

[Arawak]

Thanks zool, I'll check more thoroughly. I went at least halfway up, but tomorrow night I'll take more samples.

From what I have been reading elsewhere, there are boats made with completely hollow stringers. They are made on a mould and then glassed in place. There was an interesting argument/discussion between two engineers on the subject (sorry, it was on the tablet late and i failed to bookmark) and the gist of it is that foam can be structural, or just a form to lay up over.

The boat rides nicely enough, and the couple times I was in rough water it gave no sign of flexing. of course that's a hard thing to measure though.

The 2lb flotation foam that we are removing was poorly done, did not fully expand and there were large air void in the compartment. I'm hoping to do a much better job, using the 5lb foam I bought for my last project. So that should add some structural support that was not there before. Additionally, I'm thinking about covering the stringers with a layer or two of 12oz biaxial in epoxy.

But first, I'll do some more drilling.

 

[Arawak]

So my dad got impatient and took the drill to the stringers. It seems they are filled with foam with a 1" strip of wood at the top. Wood shavings are in good condition.

 

[Arawak]

Transom is out. Such as it is.

It's a pretty pitiful transom. Covers maybe 1/3 of the width of the stern. It was actually two sections, and the bottom section appears to be solid pine. The two 3/4" pieces of plywood were not well laminated... came apart easily and looked like they were glued with silcone or something rubbery.

Kinda wore out the cutting disc

 

[Arawak]

Need to replace the scupper hose, and the drain hose from the forward compartment to a through hull. Also, will need new fuel hose since I'm moving the fill.

Should I just buy extra fuel hose (1.5" same as scuppers) for the scuppers, or is there significantly cheaper reinforced hose that can be gotten? Marine fuel hose is *not* cheap.

And, any tips on where/what to get the forward drain hose (3/4")?

I'm looking at Marelon through hulls for the forward drain and the livewell feed. Don't really trust the $30 aerator pump below the waterline, so planning to put a valve between the through hull and pump. Would be unimpressed if the cheap plastic broke on the pump and I started taking on water.

 

[Woodonglass]

You don't want to "Go Cheap" On fuel lines or below waterline plumbing!!!! Bite the bullet and open your wallet!!! You can scrimp and save elsewhere

 

[Arawak]

I think I wasn't very clear. I plan to buy quality marine fuel hose for the fuel fill.

Is this what I should use for the scuppers also? Or, is there something less costly that meets standards required for drain hoses below the waterline.

 

[Woodonglass]

Oh, OK I gotcha, for the scuppers you can use PVC Flex tubing. That's what I'd use.

 

[DeepBlue2010]

Need to replace the scupper hose, and the drain hose from the forward compartment to a through hull. Also, will need new fuel hose since I'm moving the fill.

Should I just buy extra fuel hose (1.5" same as scuppers) for the scuppers, or is there significantly cheaper reinforced hose that can be gotten? Marine fuel hose is *not* cheap.

And, any tips on where/what to get the forward drain hose (3/4")?

I'm looking at Marelon through hulls for the forward drain and the livewell feed. Don't really trust the $30 aerator pump below the waterline, so planning to put a valve between the through hull and pump. Would be unimpressed if the cheap plastic broke on the pump and I started taking on water.

Arawak, I have been silently following you progress and admiring the collaboration between you and your old man. You are very lucky indeed to have this opportunity to work with him on a project as involving as this one.

I have few comments/thoughts on the posted I quoted above..

First, let me start by moving the fuel filling fitting idea. The current location has the disadvantage of being PITA to deal with in a rough sea as you indicated but it has a great advantage of keeping any spills outside the boat. Bayliners tend to burp (has fuel backflow) while fueling. Before you attempt relocating your filling fitting, consider what happen if you have a fuel backflow and where the fuel would go. Boats with a gunnel filling tends to have wide gunnels that slightly tilted toward the water and away from the boat - at least around the filling fitting - to account for the backflow situation. Do you have such gunnels? If not, maybe the transom is a better place for the new fitting?

Also, considering that you will be most likely fueling on a fuel dock which is in a marina which is always protected from rough seas by natural or manmade water break line, do you still think relocating the fitting is worth doing? Just something to think about.

Secondly, and most importantly, about using the through hulls. I am not sure what you currently have in your boat and how it is currently feed the livewell and how it gets drained. I noticed in the pictures on page one that you have a through hull fitting forward and on the port side, is this for feeding the livewell?

In any event, if you will add a new through hull fitting to drain the livewell, you will need to make sure it is - at least - 4 inches above the fully rigged water line which is your water line with full tank of fuel, water and whatever number of people you expect to have on the boat plus any equipments or supplies.

A good enough first approximation is to add 2 inches to your natural water line (draw a line above it by 2 inches) and consider this your fully rigged water line. A through hull fitting that close to the water line must also has an adequate riser loop. This is very important to avoid reveres siphoning which - potentially - can sink boats. You might find this article interesting and informative if you need more info on the subject.

http://www.yachtsurvey.com/sinking.htm


Also, on the feed side you mentioned you will add a valve between the cheap plastic through hull fitting and the pump. Unlike bilge pump, aerator pumps takes the water from the sea and into the livewell which is in the boat. Even if you add a valve, it should allow the water to flow into the boat (the live well) in normal operation mode. This means also that if the cheap plastic through hull fitting fails, the boat will still take water. Actually, depends on where the plastic will break, the boat can still take water no matter what. I hope I misunderstood your statement and you don't really intend to use plastic through hull fitting under the water line.

To pump sea water from under water line you need to use metal seacock. I would not use anything other than the seacocks with built in shut off valves so I can turn it off in case any hoses or downstream fittings has failed.

As to where you buy your supplies, visit any local marine store in your area, they should have all the hoses and fittings, etc. Amazon is a good place to save some $$ if you can wait for the shipment and the saving is worth it, of course.

Finally, as WoodOnGlass indicated, no need to use fuel type hose in regular pluming applications. It would be unnecessary waste of money.

Best of luck to you and your father in this project.

 

[Arawak]

Arawak, I have been silently following you progress and admiring the collaboration between you and your old man. You are very lucky indeed to have this opportunity to work with him on a project as involving as this one.

I am indeed! There's not much he can't do. He's a fine woodworker... built most of the wood furniture in my house, built my kitchen (solid cherry) including most of the plumbing and wiring. Not long ago he did an electric vehicle conversion on a Chevy S-10. Like most of my family, he's built a boat (well, one and a half... he had to abandon his ferro-cement one in the 60s when it was discovered I was on the way). Built a couple houses. Good man my father.

First, let me start by moving the fuel filling fitting idea. The current location has the disadvantage of being PITA to deal with in a rough sea as you indicated but it has a great advantage of keeping any spills outside the boat. Bayliners tend to burp (has fuel backflow) while fueling. Before you attempt relocating your filling fitting, consider what happen if you have a fuel backflow and where the fuel would go. Boats with a gunnel filling tends to have wide gunnels that slightly tilted toward the water and away from the boat - at least around the filling fitting - to account for the backflow situation. Do you have such gunnels? If not, maybe the transom is a better place for the new fitting?

Wow, never considered that. So, you are suggesting putting here?

What sort of a fill would I use for that, something like this? I was planning to use this one.

Also, considering that you will be most likely fueling on a fuel dock which is in a marina which is always protected from rough seas by natural or manmade water break line, do you still think relocating the fitting is worth doing? Just something to think about.

it's a trailered boat, I would always be filling in a gas station on the back of the trailer. My concern is if I ever ran out of gas on Lake Erie.

Secondly, and most importantly, about using the through hulls. I am not sure what you currently have in your boat and how it is currently feed the livewell and how it gets drained. I noticed in the pictures on page one that you have a through hull fitting forward and on the port side, is this for feeding the livewell?

In any event, if you will add a new through hull fitting to drain the livewell, you will need to make sure it is - at least - 4 inches above the fully rigged water line which is your water line with full tank of fuel, water and whatever number of people you expect to have on the boat plus any equipments or supplies.

No new through hull holes. The bronze one on the port side near the bow drains the compartment at the bow. The plastic one on the bottom at the stern is water intake for the baitwell. Baitwell drains into the splashwell, above the water line.

So, I have decided to replace both through hulls with new bronze ones. The one for the baitwell will be fitted with a bronze ball valve, into which the aerator pump will be attached. This will be closed most of the time, unless I'm running the pump.

I debated whether or not to put a valve on the forward one, but it is not very accessible, so it is not really practical. I think if I use quality hardware and hose it will be fine.

A good enough first approximation is to add 2 inches to your natural water line (draw a line above it by 2 inches) and consider this your fully rigged water line. A through hull fitting that close to the water line must also has an adequate riser loop. This is very important to avoid reveres siphoning which - potentially - can sink boats. You might find this article interesting and informative if you need more info on the subject.

http://www.yachtsurvey.com/sinking.htm

Great stuff, thanks!!

Also, on the feed side you mentioned you will add a valve between the cheap plastic through hull fitting and the pump. Unlike bilge pump, aerator pumps takes the water from the sea and into the livewell which is in the boat. Even if you add a valve, it should allow the water to flow into the boat (the live well) in normal operation mode. This means also that if the cheap plastic through hull fitting fails, the boat will still take water. Actually, depends on where the plastic will break, the boat can still take water no matter what. I hope I misunderstood your statement and you don't really intend to use plastic through hull fitting under the water line.

The cheap plastic I'm concerned about is in the aerator pump, which will be below the water line. I think if I isolate it with a bronze vale or seacock, I will be covered?

To pump sea water from under water line you need to use metal seacock. I would not use anything other than the seacocks with built in shut off valves so I can turn it off in case any hoses or downstream fittings has failed.

I don't understand the difference between a seacock and a ball valve on a through hull. Can you explain what I'm missing?

As to where you buy your supplies, visit any local marine store in your area, they should have all the hoses and fittings, etc. Amazon is a good place to save some $$ if you can wait for the shipment and the saving is worth it, of course.

Not many of them left here in southwestern Ontario. I'll have to do most of my purchasing online.

Finally, as WoodOnGlass indicated, no need to use fuel type hose in regular pluming applications. It would be unnecessary waste of money.

That's what I was hoping. I did read an interesting article last night where a guy spilled acetone into his boat, which went down the drain and ate the scupper hose on the way out.

Bayliner put these scuppers at or below the waterline, for some reason. Even after I lighten the stern by replacing all the wet foam and soaked wood a leak in the hose will bring water into the boat.

Best of luck to you and your father in this project.

Thanks, and thank you for all your input... I really appreciate it!

 

[DeepBlue2010]

So, you are suggesting putting here?

Yes, or a similar place that will not accumulate spilled fuel on deck or bilge.

What sort of a fill would I use for that, something like this? I was planning to use this one.

Personally, I would not, and actually did not, use any plastic fuel fill fittings, or any fittings for that matter. Especially not with fuel and for sure, don’t get the one that combines the filling and vent in one unit. Go stainless steel if budget allows. I am not a big fan of Perko myself, I purchased Attwood products and I am very happy I did. Search for "Attwood Enhanced Stainless Steel Alloy Deck Fill". This is the one I would use

it's a trailered boat, I would always be filling in a gas station on the back of the trailer. My concern is if I ever ran out of gas on Lake Erie.

Yes, I realize that. Fueling on land is always a no concern. I was talking about fueling while on the water. Unless you will be fueling from a fuel container, you will be most likely fueling at a fuel dock, right? I am not familiar with your area but at least here in the greater Seattle area, most lakes and all over Puget Sound, we have marinas with fuel docks. These are always protected by a break line. So, it is calm and safe even if the outside water is rough.

No new through hull holes. The bronze one on the port side near the bow drains the compartment at the bow.

But, from the picture, this looked to be under water line! Is it?

I don't understand the difference between a seacock and a ball valve on a through hull. Can you explain what I'm missing?

You might find this interesting. http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/seacock_primer

In general, ABYC has a specific rules for proper seacock. It has to have a flange and a securing method at the base that would take the force of closing and opening the valve without affecting the integrity of the connection. So, simply installing a ball valve inline with a through hull fitting is not a proper seacock and it can fail.

Bayliner put these scuppers at or below the waterline, for some reason. Even after I lighten the stern by replacing all the wet foam and soaked wood a leak in the hose will bring water into the boat.

Are these to drain the splash well only or the deck as well? If the former, it is OK. If the latter, please post pictures of the connections. These flappers can fail and the deck can be flooded. Not a very good scenario.

Thanks, and thank you for all your input... I really appreciate it!

You are very welcome. Best of luck to you. Keep us posted

 

[Arawak]

Yes, or a similar place that will not accumulate spilled fuel on deck or bilge.

Ok, I'll have a look this afternoon to see how that would work.

>>> No new through hull holes. The bronze one on the port side near the bow drains the compartment at the bow.

But, from the picture, this looked to be under water line! Is it?

When it's not under way, yes.

Have a look at the third photo in the very first post. That compartment with the hatch open has a drain with a hose down to the through hull in question. The through hull is below the waterline, except when boat os on plane. The drain it runs up to is well above the waterline... probably 12" at least. Plus, it's a watertight compartment, and its lip is another 6" above that. So the only risk is the hose giving out. I'll make sure I have good quality Trident hose for that, and marine hose clamps.

You might find this interesting. http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/seacock_primer

Ah, ok, now I get it. To be honest, on a trailered boat that will go out maybe 10 times a year, I think it would have been fine and an improvement over what was there. But for $80 I'll buy a proper seacock and not have to worry about it.

Are these to drain the splash well only or the deck as well? If the former, it is OK. If the latter, please post pictures of the connections. These flappers can fail and the deck can be flooded. Not a very good scenario.

Sorry, I don't have any good photos from before it was all apart. Have a look in post #2 where you are looking towards the stern. There are two drains at the floor. Each of these has a hose going down to a scupper through hull. These are just below the waterline. The flappers have in fact failed long ago, and if I load it up enough and sit on the transom I can get the back end of the cockpit just below the waterline and some water to come into the cockpit.

Splashwell has its own drains. Have a look from the stern.

I'm actually considering using regular 1.5" through hulls instead of flappers, and keeping a set of drainplugs on hand in case I ever had a need to plug them.

 

[Arawak]

We discovered something today that concerns me. In the picture below, you can see the bulkhead amidships. It's rotten, so it is being cut out. I had assumed that it fit over the stringers. But, it goes straight down the the hull and the stringers are divided in half by it. I have never seen a boat with stringers that were effectively cut in half like this. I'm not really liking this, and am seriously considering going back to my original plan of replacing the stringers. To me, these should run the full length, and have several bulkheads keeping them rigid.