Boat Show in CA - Glastron GLS 195 vs. GT205 vs. Four Winns H210

[Sandi_k]

Re: Boat Show in CA - Glastron GLS 195 vs. GT205 vs. Four Winns H210

Tazrig, thanks, we looked at the boattest site. I've found that I was able to find most of the videos on Youtube w/o having to sign up on boattest.

 

[jkust]

Re: Boat Show in CA - Glastron GLS 195 vs. GT205 vs. Four Winns H210

Would it be wrong to say I hate you?

Actually, you live in MN? Never mind - we have been out on the water the last two weekends, so I'll simply revel in our weather, and suck up the sales tax....

No because I get to go snowmobiling right out of my garage...about the time i'm sick of boating, our fall season starts. I'd take 4 seasons over any Southern states weather. I love boating but also love snow. Boating can't give the zero to 100 mph feeling in a few seconds and freedom to go anywhere like snowmobiles can.
As for the sales tax stuff, buying a nearly new boat here and saving on the massive tax grab, plus getting thousands of dollars of stuff thrown in is just a no brainer. I sort of figured CA wouldn't have that same set up unfortunately.

 

[RotaryRacer]

Re: Boat Show in CA - Glastron GLS 195 vs. GT205 vs. Four Winns H210

At some point in the not so recent past Lee Iacocca was in charge of the people who designed and manufactured both the K-car and the Imperial. I'll take the Imperial.

I guess...if that is how you perceive quality.

Lee Iacocc took the helm in 1978. The first Imperial he was instrumental in bringing to market only lasted 3 model years. 1981-1983. It had features that were known to be problematic. Namely the rudimentary fuel injection system that in many cases was retrofitted to a carb under warranty. The fuel system was adapted to the 318 V-8 that was used in everything from Dodge trucks to boats. Good motor, bad fuel injection system used on only one model....the Imperial which failed to meet the sales targets and was canned.

The next attempt at a "luxury" car was in 1990 again with the Imperial name. I'm not sure anyone could make any sound argument about it being a good or competitive car in the market. It was introduced 9 years after the platform it rode on was introduced as a lowly "K" car. It in fact it really was a K car. It only lasted 4 model years and then was canned due to slow sales.

So what was your point?

Oh yeah quality. I think that opinions about what "quality" is varies widely. What you seem to percieve as a good "quality" product revolves around only a few things. Weight, smoothness of gelcoat and wether or not there is a solid thud every time you hit the side of the boat.

What I am arguing is that your method of measuring quality and your insistance that 2 brands made by the same company are drastically different in quality levels is wrong.

Quality is so much more. Quality in this day and age is more about how the product is made than the end result. A real manufacturer with current & modern manufacturering processes is so focussed on quality that every detail is defined to the nth degree and they really don't even know how to make a product that doesn't meet the quality standards.

Now when it comes to the structural design, mechanical design, aesthetic design, the hardware and fittings specified and the tolerances allowed on how it all fits together. That is what sets one brand appart from the other. Quality is a measure of adherence to these standards.

 

[OrangeTJ]

Re: Boat Show in CA - Glastron GLS 195 vs. GT205 vs. Four Winns H210

Sorry to get a little off track here, but I have to comment on the Mercedes vs. Chrysler thing. IMO, MB has managed to hold an artificially elevated level of "quality" status in people's minds for many years now, based on the real differences that existed decades ago. A modern MB is a beautiful vehicle with great fit & finish, but I think actual reliability has to be factored in when you're talking about "quality", not just how nice the stitching is on the leather or how nice the paint looks. Having owned both an MB and Chrysler vehicles (well, actually, a Dodge truck and two Jeeps), my own experience was that our Mercedes was the absolute least reliable vehicle we've ever owned. It drove beautifully and was very comfortable, but by the time we sold it after owning it for 5 years, the service department printout was over 50 pages long and the thing had been back to the dealership to have on thing after another fixed at least once a quarter. By comparison, all three of the Chrysler vehicles we owned were and have been 100% reliable. They certainly aren't "nicer" than the MB, but the most important aspect of quality in a vehicle, from my perspective, is that the thing keep on running without requiring frequent repair and replacement of ridiculously expensive parts.

All of that said - the Four Winns, Cobalts and Chaps are certainly beautiful boats, but are they really that much more reliable than a Glastron? Will you have 25 - 30% more fun out on the water with it than you will on the Glastron? Will it last 25 - 30% longer? Does it matter (i.e. are you planning to keep this boat for 30 years or will you realistically be keeping it for 10 or less)? Heck, my folks have a 1985 Marlin 170 Satellite, which was just a normal family runabout, with a 3.0 4 cylinder and OMC sterndrive and it has held up beautifully. It's been kept in a garage and maintained appropriately. Had my parents instead spent 30% more on a Four Winns at the time, what difference would that have made? By extension, I'd wager that a well maintained Glastron stored somewhere out of the weather and used under reasonable conditions (i.e. not pounded through 3 foot chop day in and day out) will continue to be a useful and enjoyable boat just as long as a Four Winns under the same conditions.

 

[jkust]

Re: Boat Show in CA - Glastron GLS 195 vs. GT205 vs. Four Winns H210

Sorry to get a little off track here, but I have to comment on the Mercedes vs. Chrysler thing. IMO, MB has managed to hold an artificially elevated level of "quality" status in people's minds for many years now, based on the real differences that existed decades ago. A modern MB is a beautiful vehicle with great fit & finish, but I think actual reliability has to be factored in when you're talking about "quality", not just how nice the stitching is on the leather or how nice the paint looks. Having owned both an MB and Chrysler vehicles (well, actually, a Dodge truck and two Jeeps), my own experience was that our Mercedes was the absolute least reliable vehicle we've ever owned. It drove beautifully and was very comfortable, but by the time we sold it after owning it for 5 years, the service department printout was over 50 pages long and the thing had been back to the dealership to have on thing after another fixed at least once a quarter. By comparison, all three of the Chrysler vehicles we owned were and have been 100% reliable. They certainly aren't "nicer" than the MB, but the most important aspect of quality in a vehicle, from my perspective, is that the thing keep on running without requiring frequent repair and replacement of ridiculously expensive parts.

All of that said - the Four Winns, Cobalts and Chaps are certainly beautiful boats, but are they really that much more reliable than a Glastron? Will you have 25 - 30% more fun out on the water with it than you will on the Glastron? Will it last 25 - 30% longer? Does it matter (i.e. are you planning to keep this boat for 30 years or will you realistically be keeping it for 10 or less)? Heck, my folks have a 1985 Marlin 170 Satellite, which was just a normal family runabout, with a 3.0 4 cylinder and OMC sterndrive and it has held up beautifully. It's been kept in a garage and maintained appropriately. Had my parents instead spent 30% more on a Four Winns at the time, what difference would that have made? By extension, I'd wager that a well maintained Glastron stored somewhere out of the weather and used under reasonable conditions (i.e. not pounded through 3 foot chop day in and day out) will continue to be a useful and enjoyable boat just as long as a Four Winns under the same conditions.

It's funny you mention that about Mercedes...watching the English version of Top Gear, they have bashed Mercedes quality as overtly as is possible for years. Comments such as '...and since it's a Mercedes we know there will be quality issues...' Totally altered my thinking about Mercedes. Boats are an odd duck because as we all know all the engines and outdrives are the same. I've mentioned it before but only the buyer can discern whether they will enjoy a higher end boat that is legitimately a higher end boat over a lesser but cheaper boat. Do you care that you spent thousands of extra dollars for what most people don't or can't recognize having not owned one or do you like to have the extra money in your bank account. Where cars are concerned...I will take the midlevel but decked out version but where boats are concerned, I like riding in style. The kids don't care and my wife could care less, but I like it and I'm willing to pay.
I can trump your Marlin story with my folks 84 Bayliner they bought new and was maintained only in the sense that shoes weren't worn in it, and it was never allowed to sit wet, and was always covered when not in use. It may be the crappiest boat ever produced but is still after all these years the boat is nice. Any leisure boat not in salt water can be kept pristine with a tiny amount extra attention.

 

[Sandi_k]

Re: Boat Show in CA - Glastron GLS 195 vs. GT205 vs. Four Winns H210

Sandi, you sound a bit more experienced than we may be giving you credit. Gearheads can figure this stuff out and you'll know what important features and good maintenance look like.

Here's just a few quick examples of V8's, given that it's an early March Sacramento CL search, you should have no problem finding something solid. Apologies if this goes against forum etiquette.

2003 Four Winns Horizon 21 ft

**FOUR WINNS H 200SS, 2007..5.0L MPI w/53 hours..Factory Tower**

2007 Reinell 207LS wake/ski boat

2007 Regal 2000 Bowrider

Moosehead, thanks for these. We've tended to avoid CL for expensive purchases, but that may just be our bias. We've had good success with boattrader.com, and their search interface is HUGELY superior to CL. But it may be worth being a little more open minded, especially in order to find something in our more immediate geographical area.

Thanks for the links!

 

[jkust]

Re: Boat Show in CA - Glastron GLS 195 vs. GT205 vs. Four Winns H210

Moosehead, thanks for these. We've tended to avoid CL for expensive purchases, but that may just be our bias. We've had good success with boattrader.com, and their search interface is HUGELY superior to CL. But it may be worth being a little more open minded, especially in order to find something in our more immediate geographical area.

Thanks for the links!

I've had good luck on CL. I got my sig boat from the president of US bank...not a branch...the whole massive empire. He listed it on CL even. Selling things on CL has been a bigger challenge with the substantial amoung of deadbeats. I once sold a car to a stripper who paid with one dollar bills but at least she had the money. If you think that's hard, try listing something in the 'free' section.

 

[Sandi_k]

Re: Boat Show in CA - Glastron GLS 195 vs. GT205 vs. Four Winns H210

All of that said - the Four Winns, Cobalts and Chaps are certainly beautiful boats, but are they really that much more reliable than a Glastron? Will you have 25 - 30% more fun out on the water with it than you will on the Glastron? Will it last 25 - 30% longer? Does it matter (i.e. are you planning to keep this boat for 30 years or will you realistically be keeping it for 10 or less)? Heck, my folks have a 1985 Marlin 170 Satellite, which was just a normal family runabout, with a 3.0 4 cylinder and OMC sterndrive and it has held up beautifully. It's been kept in a garage and maintained appropriately. Had my parents instead spent 30% more on a Four Winns at the time, what difference would that have made? By extension, I'd wager that a well maintained Glastron stored somewhere out of the weather and used under reasonable conditions (i.e. not pounded through 3 foot chop day in and day out) will continue to be a useful and enjoyable boat just as long as a Four Winns under the same conditions.

Yep, this is the crux of what we're struggling with. We LOVED the $40K Four Winns H210 - you could tell that the design and aesthetics were more "quality" in our world, and the little touches do make it feel more refined for sure. Is it worth $10-$15K difference? At the moment, we're leaning to no.

If we bought a used boat for $22K (say, a 2006 or 2007 Monterey 194 FS, which looks possible), OR were able to get a Glastron GT 205 for $27K, is the new boat worth $5K more?

My husband might say yes, since it means he could control the quality of break in on the engine, and he would have the satisfaction and peace of mind KNOWING the boat had never been abused. I might say no, because the $5K in our retirement accounts will make us a lot more money in 20 years, when we need it, and we'd also take the depreciation hit if/when we decided to upgrade in 3 years.

So the value of use, enjoyment, peace of mind, time value of money....all of these will play a part in the decision.

 

[Sandi_k]

Re: Boat Show in CA - Glastron GLS 195 vs. GT205 vs. Four Winns H210

I've had good luck on CL. I got my sig boat from the president of US bank...not a branch...the whole massive empire. He listed it on CL even. Selling things on CL has been a bigger challenge with the substantial amoung of deadbeats. I once sold a car to a stripper who paid with one dollar bills but at least she had the money. If you think that's hard, try listing something in the 'free' section.

Ha! We sold an old PortaBote and outboard a few years back, and got several calls. The first person to see it, bought it. The second caller, who had refused to provide a contact number, KNEW we had someone else coming to see it first. When he showed up an hour after it had been bought and hauled away, he spent 10 minutes berating me for listing the boat on the Sacramento CL board, instead of San Francisco's.

When my husband listed his last (immaculate, low miles) car on CL, one interested party called, and then had her husband call to scold my DH for DARING to ask what he was asking, because it was above the Nada guide list price for a private seller. We simply said "You haven't seen the car, and we're not requiring you to buy it." He seemed to think it was a great way to negotiate the price lower. Of course, it too was bought by the first person who saw it, so that didn't work so well for him.

As a result, CL is our listing service of last resort. Just a bad taste, ya know?

 

[Sandi_k]

Re: Boat Show in CA - Glastron GLS 195 vs. GT205 vs. Four Winns H210

Also, if you haven't compared, the under 20 foot, mid 2000's Sea Ray Sport model boats are an abomination of fiberglass for the price they charged new. The brand new ones finally, apparently were designed as though the designers actually went out and compared...meaning they are finally decent.

I suspect that you mean mid-2000's like the 2007 Sea Ray 195 Sport and 2006 Sea Ray 205 Sport?

They came up as meeting my search parameters, but when I looked at the spec sheets, they were rated at 8 passengers, but ONLY 1200 lb weight capacity! Which means we can really only take 6 adults safely...