Boat Show in CA - Glastron GLS 195 vs. GT205 vs. Four Winns H210

[haulnazz15]

Re: Boat Show in CA - Glastron GLS 195 vs. GT205 vs. Four Winns H210

As stated above there is a big quality difference between a new glastron and a new four winns. A fuel injected engine will get almost 2 times better fuel economy over a carbed model. I'm not a fan of the new catylized engines either as each one runs about $1200 - $1500 to replace (no one knows how long they will last as it's new technology) and you have 2 per motor. A 2 or 3 year old boat without them would be much preferred but if you want new thats your choice. I would go with the Four Winns because of the fuel economy but most importantly the build quality. If you truly understand and can appreciate quality along with being able to afford it. There really isn't a choice. The frame of the boat, the electronics, the metals and plastics used are just of a higher grade and designed to last longer and be more trouble free. Also a tandem axle trailer is much gentler to the hull of the boat and handles better when going down the road.

Sorry, but an EFI engine will not get 2X's better fuel efficiency over a carb'd engine. It's just two different ways of getting fuel into the engine, it doesn't change stoic values. Yes, there is better control over fuel distribution and atomization, but you won't likely see more than a 20% difference in fuel economy.

 

[tazrig]

Re: Boat Show in CA - Glastron GLS 195 vs. GT205 vs. Four Winns H210

I thought that they'd been in use for a decade now? And we're not asking about a carbureted model - all of them at the boat show had FI.



As I said, we've found 8 boats within 500 miles that meet our criteria - 270 hp, less than 100 hours, between 18-22 feet, and either Glastron, 4 Winns, Monterey or Chapparal. So I'm not sure I'd say it's much of a choice, since we're talking a difference in some instances of less than $3K between new and used.



Yes, we'd prefer the tandem trailer for sure. In terms of the build quality, that's part of what we're trying to get a sense of. Some people say that Glastron and Four Winns are comparable quality since they're built in the same factory; others say that there's a noticeable quality difference between the two, with very little evidence. When we examined them at the show, there were details/niceties about the Four Winns that definitely appealed - better use of the storage under the bow seats; heat shields between the engine and the storage under the bench seating aft; but the question is whether that's worth an extra $10K in the new market.

Sandi

Sandi, The catylized engines are new in the last 2 years or so. As stated earlier they are being forced on us by the EPA and the argument that they will save on pollution based on the number of boats that will be using them is pitiful and unfounded at best. All they do is add 2-3 thousand to the price of the boat along with unwanted complexity which translates into higher repair bills going forward. You might want to expand your search parameters to include 250, 260 and 300hp engines as the 270 is an odd size and may be why you aren't seeing many more boats for sale.

As far as quality and being made in the same factory goes, Some Chryslers are made in the same factories as Mercedes because they are owned by the same corporation. It doesn't mean they are of the same quality. To do an apples to apples comparison check the weight of the boats. Heavier is better. It is more solid, will last longer, give a smoother ride etc. Look at the wiring under the dash. The better brands are labeled and neatly bundled. Look at the rub rail (bumper strip going all the way around the boat) to see if it is perfectly straight all the way around. Do the screws match or are they uneven? Put your head against the back side of the boat and look down the length of the boat. Is the gel coat (paint) smooth and even or does it look like the side of an orange peel? Does the gel coat have a rich deep look to it or does it look shallow?

Walk around the boat and hit it with the side of your fist. You want to hear a solid "THUD" all over. If you hear a hollow sound anywhere that is a sign of a lessor made boat. Look at the fastening hardware used to hold the seats, engine hatch and cleats in place. Bigger, thicker, heavier duty and through bolted rather than just screwed in is better. How big are the cleats? Again bigger is better. Grab the top of the windshield and shake it. Is it good and solid or does it wobble. Is it held in place by plastic fasteners or quality stainless steel fasteners? Do the same with the steering wheel. Are the sides of the boat that support things like the throttle thin and chincy or thick and solid? Open the engine compartment and see how thick the stringers (cross members that the engine bolts onto) are. Thicker is better. The more fiberglass used to attach the stringers the better. These are just some of the little things that go into making one boat a better quality than another but trust me those little things add up fast both in the cost of the boat and how long it will last. Are the gauges double lensed (to prevent fogging up) made by VDO (same gauges used Mercedes, BMW and Porche) or are they a cheap no name brand that you would buy in wal mart?

Bottom line as it relates to quality. The better quality refinements that you can see are usually a pretty good indicator of the quality that you can't see but is there. Cheap things in a boat will rust out, fall apart, need to be replaced sooner etc. and end up costing you far more in the long run. I realize with no prior boating experience it may be difficult for you to spot the differences. One option might be to pear down your choice to 2 boat brands and hire a certified marine surveyor for a couple of hundred dollars to give each boat the once over. To the trained eye it only takes about 5 minutes to tell the difference between quality and not.

 

[Sandi_k]

Re: Boat Show in CA - Glastron GLS 195 vs. GT205 vs. Four Winns H210

Tazrig, thank you for your thoughtful reply.

I believe I mentioned that we've owned PWCs for a decade. We're familiar with gelcoat and fiberglass, heft and quality in fixtures. I lived on a boat for a while as a kid, and DH has 4 decades of "gearhead" passion and expertise. We're not complete neophytes - and we do appreciate quality. We know orange peel when we see it. And we understand, living on the water, how corrosive a water environment can be - and it's one reason we're taking our time and asking questions, and visiting boat shows, and asking for further information here. We are currently compiling a list of local dealers and reasonable used boats for further exploration, and we'll continue to do so. The note on differing hp parameters is useful, thank you.

Much of what you've described as assessment, we did. But this is our first foray into BOAT ownership options, and as an earlier poster said, "you don't know what you don't know." So thanks for the detailed response, as it tells us we're on the right track.

We have looked at the engine bays (thus our questions about 5.0L vs. 5.7L VP engines with 220 vs 225 hp vs. 270), and we have looked at the stringers and construction. We definitely looked at the rub rail and attachment points, the thickness of the upholstery, the use of stainless steel instead of vinyl, efficient use of storage, heat shields in the stern engine compartments, the gelcoat, etc.

We did not know about dual lens instrument panels, or to look under the electrical panel for labeling and bundling - thanks for the tips! And we will definitely be pounding our way down the length of any used boat we consider.

Sandi

 

[jkust]

Re: Boat Show in CA - Glastron GLS 195 vs. GT205 vs. Four Winns H210

As to the length and designations of boat models, manufacturers have been fudging for years and years. Adding swim platforms and including that in the length. The wetted surface as mentioned above is the key. Some boats will cut that wetted surface down a foot so. You can therefore have an 18 foot boat that has the same wetted surface as a cheapo 20 foot boat. My 183 is actually 19'11" of total length with the optional swim platform so they didn't cheat on the designation and the wetted surface is the whole 18 feet 3 inches.. I only lightly mentioned it above but you will see circuit breakers under the dash as well not fuses as on some cheap boats. The baffeling thing to me is that my 2003 has all of the stuff that still, 10 years later isn't included on all boats which I just have a hard time understanding since you'd think the stuff just doesn't hardly cost anything. A 10 year old car can't hold a candle to a new car, but the marine world has moved at a snails pace for so long. Where boats like Glastrons excel is to draw your attention to the stuff that makes the boat LOOK great then cut some details. For the smaller ones the VEC hull they used for years was the epitomy of cost cutting but was great for marketing.

 

[briangcc]

Re: Boat Show in CA - Glastron GLS 195 vs. GT205 vs. Four Winns H210

Well in '05 the 5.0L Fuel Injected Volvo IS 270HP. The carbed versions were less HP (I believe they were 220HP). I've been looking at all the major manufacturers this year for kicks and they all list the 5.0L Volvo with Fuel Injection AND Catalyst at 270HP. It's the 5.7L that steps up to 300HP under the Volvo line.


I will say that I would opt for a Fuel Injected engine over a carb any day. Cold starts, ease of starts, etc.


I like my Four Winns and have looked at the H210 as a replacement. Lots of nice storage options and the L shaped seating on the side is very nice. As is the starboard side transom walkthrough/convertible sunpad lounger. BIG selling features for my wife. The other boat we're considering is the Glastron GTS 225. This has a very nice sunpad with lounger AND also a rear bench seat - look at the pictures on Glastron's site to see what I'm referring to.

 

[tazrig]

Re: Boat Show in CA - Glastron GLS 195 vs. GT205 vs. Four Winns H210

Sorry, but an EFI engine will not get 2X's better fuel efficiency over a carb'd engine. It's just two different ways of getting fuel into the engine, it doesn't change stoic values. Yes, there is better control over fuel distribution and atomization, but you won't likely see more than a 20% difference in fuel economy.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree. The amount of gas from a carbed engine vs. fuel injected is way more than 20%. You have a computer controling exactly how much gas goes into the engine vs. a carb that sucks gas in based on simple vacuum preassure. The computer ECM monitors a variety of sensors and adjusts the engine accordingly on an ongoing basis for optimum fuel usage.

 

[moosehead]

Re: Boat Show in CA - Glastron GLS 195 vs. GT205 vs. Four Winns H210

OP, lots of good info here, but IMO this is worth repeating, and worth extra search effort on your part: $30K is a lot of money and will buy you a top of the line, best in class, gently used 20'+ with larger V8, MPI, no cat, tandem trailer, swim platforms, plus extras.

Bonus extras on used frequently can include electronics, towers, coolers, gear, etc. On the surface, used may not appear much of a delta to new, but at those prices you can jump to the better finishes found in Regal/Chapparal/Cobalt with stronger powerplants and a ton of extras thrown in if you look hard enough. Sure you'll need to have it checked out, but you'll be sacrificing nothing other than your time.

It would most definitely be worth it to expand your search zone to several hours drive time from say Sacramento. That covers a bunch of freshwater boating areas in Norcal.

Happy hunting.

 

[haulnazz15]

Re: Boat Show in CA - Glastron GLS 195 vs. GT205 vs. Four Winns H210

I guess we will have to agree to disagree. The amount of gas from a carbed engine vs. fuel injected is way more than 20%. You have a computer controling exactly how much gas goes into the engine vs. a carb that sucks gas in based on simple vacuum preassure. The computer ECM monitors a variety of sensors and adjusts the engine accordingly on an ongoing basis for optimum fuel usage.

Fuel delivery is fuel delivery. If the carb is decently tuned, the volume of fuel running through a carb at cruise rpm will be very close to the volume of fuel running through injectors. It takes a certain amount of fuel per given volume of air (read:rpm) to remain at stoic 14:1 A/F ratio. That amount of fuel is the same regardless of what mechanism is delivering it. The only major difference is the accuracy of the metering system with modern injectors. Again, the primary advantage of fuel-injection is better atomization and easier cold starts. Find me some factual data that supports a doubling of fuel mileage by going to fuel injection over a carburetor and I'll believe you. All of the documentation I've ever seen shows around a 20% increase.

 

[jkust]

Re: Boat Show in CA - Glastron GLS 195 vs. GT205 vs. Four Winns H210

OP, lots of good info here, but IMO this is worth repeating, and worth extra search effort on your part: $30K is a lot of money and will buy you a top of the line, best in class, gently used 20'+ with larger V8, MPI, no cat, tandem trailer, swim platforms, plus extras.

Bonus extras on used frequently can include electronics, towers, coolers, gear, etc. On the surface, used may not appear much of a delta to new, but at those prices you can jump to the better finishes found in Regal/Chapparal/Cobalt with stronger powerplants and a ton of extras thrown in if you look hard enough. Sure you'll need to have it checked out, but you'll be sacrificing nothing other than your time.

It would most definitely be worth it to expand your search zone to several hours drive time from say Sacramento. That covers a bunch of freshwater boating areas in Norcal.

Happy hunting.

Great point...I got over $2,000 in extras with my sig boat. Stuff I'd never pony up to buy...his loss my gain. Like buying a nice new house but forgetting you have to install the lawn sprinklers and trees etc.

 

[buellwinkle]

Re: Boat Show in CA - Glastron GLS 195 vs. GT205 vs. Four Winns H210

I would not get a boat in California with a carburator because of the variations in altitude. If you setup the carb for sea level, then take it to say Lake Tahoe it's barely going to run because it will be too rich. So you need to rejet the carb and then if you take it down to Folsom Lake at lower alititude rejet it again otherwise it will be too lean. So get a fuel injected engine, MPI, whatever they call it these days. Heck, even motor in my boat, an inline 6 2-stroke from '98 is MPI.

I know what you mean about used. I think it's because the ecomony was bad for the past 7 years not that many bought new boats so there's not much for sale for boats say newer than 2007. I feel to get the boats you are looking at, and there's one that's say 5 years old, it's probably going to run $20K so I can see why paying $30K for a brand new one is worth it to you. Personally I went used, not because I can't afford a new boat, it's because I'm not sure it's what I want in size or type of vessel.

 

[Sandi_k]

Re: Boat Show in CA - Glastron GLS 195 vs. GT205 vs. Four Winns H210

OP, lots of good info here, but IMO this is worth repeating, and worth extra search effort on your part: $30K is a lot of money and will buy you a top of the line, best in class, gently used 20'+ with larger V8, MPI, no cat, tandem trailer, swim platforms, plus extras.

Yes, this is why we're searching, instead of signing up at the boat show.

Bonus extras on used frequently can include electronics, towers, coolers, gear, etc. On the surface, used may not appear much of a delta to new, but at those prices you can jump to the better finishes found in Regal/Chapparal/Cobalt with stronger powerplants and a ton of extras thrown in if you look hard enough. Sure you'll need to have it checked out, but you'll be sacrificing nothing other than your time.

Yes, we know this is true (except for Cobalt - I think it will be out of our range, since the prices don't drop off very steeply for them in the used market). The accessories, in terms of canvas, bumpers, and add-on electronics are a fair amount of additional cash. As a result, I've done what I always do in these situations - make a spreadsheet! It's also worth noting that in our area, sales & use tax is 9.5% - so if we lower our base price, and reduce the accessory purchases, that's a solid chunk of change we can spend on GAS!

It would most definitely be worth it to expand your search zone to several hours drive time from say Sacramento. That covers a bunch of freshwater boating areas in Norcal.

Happy hunting.

Moosehead, our search diameter is 500 miles. So it includes some parts of NV and AZ as well. My gearhead-experienced (but overcommitted) DH has a very long list of preferences, not the least of which is "not another project, please." Mine is very short: at least 19', with a swim platform, and in the $20-22K range. I'd love to find something with a walk-through transom, but it's not a requirement, per se. Happily, we're pretty much on the same page for pretty much all of this.

And - we don't HAVE to find something this season. We're well aware that prices will drop in Sept., when the boats have another "season" on them, and the owners are looking at another year of depreciation and storage. So we're leaning to finding the right boat, used, and have it for 2-3 years, before we strike out and buy our "dream" boat.

Thanks for your thoughts!

 

[Sandi_k]

Re: Boat Show in CA - Glastron GLS 195 vs. GT205 vs. Four Winns H210

I would not get a boat in California with a carburator because of the variations in altitude. If you setup the carb for sea level, then take it to say Lake Tahoe it's barely going to run because it will be too rich. So you need to rejet the carb and then if you take it down to Folsom Lake at lower alititude rejet it again otherwise it will be too lean. So get a fuel injected engine, MPI, whatever they call it these days. Heck, even motor in my boat, an inline 6 2-stroke from '98 is MPI.

Ah, good point. And we *do* travel a bit - we've been all over CA with the skis, and we had a lovely trip in 2005 to Arizona/Utah and Lake Powell.

I know what you mean about used. I think it's because the ecomony was bad for the past 7 years not that many bought new boats so there's not much for sale for boats say newer than 2007. I feel to get the boats you are looking at, and there's one that's say 5 years old, it's probably going to run $20K so I can see why paying $30K for a brand new one is worth it to you. Personally I went used, not because I can't afford a new boat, it's because I'm not sure it's what I want in size or type of vessel.

Also a good point. I hadn't thought about the initial sales stats leading to a scarce used market, but it makes eminent sense. Yeah, I think $30K for new can easily lead to $40K - with sales tax of $3K, canvas, electronics, bumpers, etc. Which is why we're beginning to settle on used, and ~ $20-$22K as a reasonable first step. It looks like we should be able to find a Sea Ray, Monterey, Glastron, Rinker, Four Winns or Chaparral that's circa 2005-2007 for that, with not a huge number of hours on it, for somewhere in that range.

 

[jkust]

Re: Boat Show in CA - Glastron GLS 195 vs. GT205 vs. Four Winns H210

It's also worth noting that in our area, sales & use tax is 9.5% -

In the Republic of Minnesota there is no sales tax on used boats as long as it was a private party sale. Brokered boats from a dealer have none either but used from a dealer does. You only pay sales tax on the value of the trailer that the buyer determines at the time of title transfer. Also, if you haven't compared, the under 20 foot, mid 2000's Sea Ray Sport model boats are an abomination of fiberglass for the price they charged new. The brand new ones finally, apparently were designed as though the designers actually went out and compared...meaning they are finally decent. The very late 90's and early 2000's were decent however. Those then don't compare to some of the other brands you mentioned but the sellers may not have gotten the memo.

 

[Sandi_k]

Re: Boat Show in CA - Glastron GLS 195 vs. GT205 vs. Four Winns H210

In the Republic of Minnesota there is no sales tax on used boats as long as it was a private party sale. Brokered boats from a dealer have none either but used from a dealer does. You only pay sales tax on the value of the trailer that the buyer determines at the time of title transfer.

Would it be wrong to say I hate you?

Actually, you live in MN? Never mind - we have been out on the water the last two weekends, so I'll simply revel in our weather, and suck up the sales tax....

 

[RotaryRacer]

Re: Boat Show in CA - Glastron GLS 195 vs. GT205 vs. Four Winns H210

As far as quality and being made in the same factory goes, Some Chryslers are made in the same factories as Mercedes because they are owned by the same corporation. It doesn't mean they are of the same quality.

I dislike it when "facts" are stated and are so clearly false. You are wrong. Chysler and Daimler have NO ties to each other any more. Daimler stepped out, dating back to the sale of Chrysler to Cerberus in 2007. Then in 2009 Chrysler was partially bought by Fiat who owns a 53.5% stake.

In addition, your attempt to dispell the "fact" that a product made in the same factory as a "higher" end brother leads to no improvement in quality really falls short. While several Chrysler products did borrow platforms, architecture and drivetrain components from Mercedes that is not indicative of them being "built" in the same factory.

Boats are very different than cars in many many ways.

For the class of boats being discussed there are 2 drivetrain manufacturers, Volvo Penta and Mercury. All brands regardless of who or where they are built use these 2 suppliers. From a quality standpoint the drivetrain is equal on all brands.

Things like windshields, gauges, covers, seats (for some builders), hardware and fittings are nearly all outsourced.

In the boat world pretty much the only major component that the the OEM manufactures completely inside is the hull. Likely this and the drivetrain are the 2 most important parts of a boat. Manufacturers are in the business to make money. To make money they streamline their process and do everything they can to keep good products flowing out of the factory. The processes and techniques put in place to keep those good products flowing don't care which brand name gets slapped on the side.

So, then we talk about design. A "quality" product needs to be designed well so that it goes together well and so that it lasts a long time. This is NOT talking color schemes, this is talking about structure and nuts and bolts.

In the case of Four Winns and Glastron, the same guy is in charge of the design of both brands. While I can't say with certainty that he and his team use the same exact design techniques for the two brands, I would say that there is a high likely hood that they at least use the same basic design minimums.

Glastron is a VERY different brand and product than it was just a few short years ago. My points here are not that they are the best and I certainly don't contend they are equal to Four Winns in everyway. THEY ARE NOT. My point is that Tazrig is wrong. Being built, designed and sharing a supplier base with the same company in the same factory does make a difference.

Glastrons are good boat and very worthy of consideration. They are the family, budget minded offering from Rec Boat Holdings LLC, who also builds Four Winns and Wellcraft in the factory in Cadillac, MI.

 

[Slip Away]

Re: Boat Show in CA - Glastron GLS 195 vs. GT205 vs. Four Winns H210

Well said RR. This is the first I have seen the new Glastron GT229 Cuddy. Should be a peppy boat with that engine in it. Here is a video walk thru of it .

Glastron GT229 Walk-Thru - YouTube

 

[moosehead]

Re: Boat Show in CA - Glastron GLS 195 vs. GT205 vs. Four Winns H210

Sandi, you sound a bit more experienced than we may be giving you credit. Gearheads can figure this stuff out and you'll know what important features and good maintenance look like.

Here's just a few quick examples of V8's, given that it's an early March Sacramento CL search, you should have no problem finding something solid. Apologies if this goes against forum etiquette.

2003 Four Winns Horizon 21 ft

**FOUR WINNS H 200SS, 2007..5.0L MPI w/53 hours..Factory Tower**

2007 Reinell 207LS wake/ski boat

2007 Regal 2000 Bowrider

 

[RotaryRacer]

Re: Boat Show in CA - Glastron GLS 195 vs. GT205 vs. Four Winns H210

Well said RR. This is the first I have seen the new Glastron GT229 Cuddy. Should be a peppy boat with that engine in it. Here is a video walk thru of it .

Glastron GT229 Walk-Thru - YouTube

Don't show that to ric...

 

[tazrig]

Re: Boat Show in CA - Glastron GLS 195 vs. GT205 vs. Four Winns H210

I dislike it when "facts" are stated and are so clearly false. You are wrong. Chysler and Daimler have NO ties to each other any more. Daimler stepped out, dating back to the sale of Chrysler to Cerberus in 2007. Then in 2009 Chrysler was partially bought by Fiat who owns a 53.5% stake.

In addition, your attempt to dispell the "fact" that a product made in the same factory as a "higher" end brother leads to no improvement in quality really falls short. While several Chrysler products did borrow platforms, architecture and drivetrain components from Mercedes that is not indicative of them being "built" in the same factory.

Boats are very different than cars in many many ways.

For the class of boats being discussed there are 2 drivetrain manufacturers, Volvo Penta and Mercury. All brands regardless of who or where they are built use these 2 suppliers. From a quality standpoint the drivetrain is equal on all brands.

Things like windshields, gauges, covers, seats (for some builders), hardware and fittings are nearly all outsourced.

In the boat world pretty much the only major component that the the OEM manufactures completely inside is the hull. Likely this and the drivetrain are the 2 most important parts of a boat. Manufacturers are in the business to make money. To make money they streamline their process and do everything they can to keep good products flowing out of the factory. The processes and techniques put in place to keep those good products flowing don't care which brand name gets slapped on the side.

So, then we talk about design. A "quality" product needs to be designed well so that it goes together well and so that it lasts a long time. This is NOT talking color schemes, this is talking about structure and nuts and bolts.

In the case of Four Winns and Glastron, the same guy is in charge of the design of both brands. While I can't say with certainty that he and his team use the same exact design techniques for the two brands, I would say that there is a high likely hood that they at least use the same basic design minimums.

Glastron is a VERY different brand and product than it was just a few short years ago. My points here are not that they are the best and I certainly don't contend they are equal to Four Winns in everyway. THEY ARE NOT. My point is that Tazrig is wrong. Being built, designed and sharing a supplier base with the same company in the same factory does make a difference.

Glastrons are good boat and very worthy of consideration. They are the family, budget minded offering from Rec Boat Holdings LLC, who also builds Four Winns and Wellcraft in the factory in Cadillac, MI.

Not quite sure what you're arguing here but to satisfy your need for absolute technical correctness, at some point in the recent past Chrysler and Mercedes were made by the same people and at least by your own admission shared some of the same platforms just like Glastron and Fourwinns. I'll take the mercedes and the Fourwinns. At some point in the not so recent past Lee Iacocca was in charge of the people who designed and manufactured both the K-car and the Imperial. I'll take the Imperial. I'm not saying there is that drastic of a difference between Glastron and Fourwinns however, just because 2 items are made under the same roof doesn't make them the same quality. Do I think Glastron has made strides forward in recent years? Absolutely. Is it the same quality as a Fourwinns? No.

 

[tazrig]

Re: Boat Show in CA - Glastron GLS 195 vs. GT205 vs. Four Winns H210

Sandi, If you haven't found this site already it might be worth your while checking it out. They have a wealth of videos of various boat tests looking at quality, engine options, accessories, boating products etc. (think consumer reports for boats) They also maintain a great library of older tests incase you decide to go the used route. You need to give them your email (they don't sell it or give to anyone else) and once a week or so you get a fresh news letter with a set of tests, some video some just print with pictures but a great recourse to be sure! :thumb: Best of luck with your spread sheet.


www.boattest.com