Using "old" lifters with new cam?

Silly Seville

Senior Chief Petty Officer
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Dec 5, 2009
Messages
798
Is this truly a no-no? The reason I ask is, the Merc manual says "IMPORTANT: DO NOT install used valve lifters if a new camshaft has been installed." Well, that simply sucks because I spent three hours completely disassembling and cleaning 16 hydraulic roller lifters by hand! I have to replace the bump stick because the donor rolling valvetrain came from an EFI. I'm using a mechanical pump. A new set of rollers is $$$! Anyone here ever disobeyed the Merc manual and lived to tell about it? Can I ignore this warning, or will I be faced with impending doom? The manual only gave the warning. It did not express WHY it was prohibited. :mad:
 

John_S

Rear Admiral
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Jun 21, 2004
Messages
4,269
Re: Using "old" lifters with new cam?

It is my understanding: You can reuse roller hyd lifters. You can't reuse the standard flat hyd lifters.

I do see the warning in the Merc SM. Not sure why, given it is not something that is commonly done in car/truck world. I installed used hyd rollers with a used roller cam (rollers not matched to lobes), and have been running fine for years.

The push-rods / rocker arms need to be kept in the same pairs they were worn together with.
 

Failproof

Petty Officer 1st Class
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Sep 26, 2011
Messages
273
Re: Using "old" lifters with new cam?

+1. Roller lifters in good shape reuse all day long. Flat tappets replace. I assume because you said they were big money that they are rollers.
 

NetDoc

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Aug 20, 2011
Messages
517
Re: Using "old" lifters with new cam?

+1 on reusing roller lifters a well. They don't develop a wear pattern like flat ones do.
 

Silly Seville

Senior Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Dec 5, 2009
Messages
798
Re: Using "old" lifters with new cam?

That's 3 for 3...thanks guys, I have my answer. Too bad the service manual didn't specify that. (Wear pattern on flats) Now I can go spend my money on manifolds! :rolleyes: (See other thread)
 

NetDoc

Chief Petty Officer
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Aug 20, 2011
Messages
517
Re: Using "old" lifters with new cam?

The push-rods / rocker arms need to be kept in the same pairs they were worn together with.
Personally, I think this is overkill for any engine doing less than 7K rpms. I can't remember how many engines that I have rebuilt with no thought to this. The wear here is usually minimal, and if its perceptible, you should be changing them out with the overhaul. The critical part is where the rocker arm contacts the end of the valve.
 

sschefer

Rear Admiral
Joined
Nov 13, 2008
Messages
4,530
Re: Using "old" lifters with new cam?

No problem reusing rollers. Flat lifters cup and get a sharp edge on them over time that will tear up a new cam in a heart beat.
 

joewithaboat

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Jul 3, 2011
Messages
1,172
Re: Using "old" lifters with new cam?

Any moving part develops some type of wear pattern. Flat tappet cams & lifters depend on setting up a wear pattern between the lobe and lifter for the lifter to spin and not flatten the lobe or were a concave hole in the bottom of the lifter. They typically don't do well if you move them around from one block to the next or even mix them up and go back in the same block. In the past I have re-used a used cam with new lifters and even low mileage cam and lifters in a new block, but it's a crap shoot. There has to be enough material left to set a new wear pattern with out going flat. With today's oil being not flat tappet friendly I would never run used cam or lifters

As to roller lifters they are often reused and do fine most of the time.

Keeping track of all parts, as to go back in the same place, makes no difference unless all the same parts are used, including the block.
 

joewithaboat

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Messages
1,172
Re: Using "old" lifters with new cam?

What an odd thing to say. Can you explain or justify this at all?

I might have chosen a different term other than "never" but it is becoming increasingly difficult to make sure the newer oils are friendly to flat tappet. All cam companies and Oil companies alike have info on this problem. Basically it the oil market has been driven recently driven by two things. Better/cleaner catalytic converters & and thinner oils. The things (ZDDP) in the older formulas that were "good" for flat tappets are "bad" for converters. The newer more efficient, tighter tolerance engines need lighter weight oils.

To be clear, the above is mostly only important for flat tappet cams.

My oil of choice, Mobil 1 Extended Performance 15W-50 synthetic, was recently discontinued. To make way for increased need for lighter weight production.

info on this is everywhere on the net.

http://www.compcams.com/Base/pdf/FlatTappetCamTechBulletin.pdf

http://www.circletrack.com/enginetech/ctrp_0807_flat_tappet_cam_lubricants/index.html

http://www.amsoil.com/techservicesbulletin/motoroil/tsb mo-2007-08-08 flat tappet.pdf

http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/showthread.php?t=381780

http://blog.motorists.org/warning-if-you-have-an-older-vehicle-choose-your-oil-carefully/

http://cranecams.com/uploads/breakin/548e.pdf

http://www.budgetenginerebuilders.com/oil_warning.html
 
Last edited:

NetDoc

Chief Petty Officer
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Aug 20, 2011
Messages
517
Re: Using "old" lifters with new cam?

Interesting to say the least. After 30 years, I left the automotive field in 1999. I have made it a point to not stay informed. :D For me, the biggest improvement in oils came around the mid to late seventies when we started getting away from Pennsylvania based oils. Too much WAX! Boy, when you took an engine apart from someone who was a Quaker State or Pennsoil fan, you had to evacuate the shop for the burned wax smell to dissipate. Blended motor oils like Mobile and Castrol showed a superior performance with little to no wax build up. Those running the high wax oils often had a 1/2-3/4" buildup on all the metals. Before you ever started washing them with a solvent you tried to scrape as much of that crap off as you could. To help reduce this, we would often suggest to our customers that they add a quart of tarry fluid or Marvel Mystery Oil a day or two before their oil change and make sure the engine was running for at least an hour or two before they in. Synthetics changed all that for me and I have been a fan of AMSOIL for a long, long time.

Most people don't have an idea what the 5W-30 means on the side of the oil can. They see it as really "thin", but at operating temps it has the same viscosity as simple 30 weight oil. 30 weight non-detergent (no-additive) oil was what we ran in the most extreme machines like a roundy round car or a dragster. Too much viscosity and the oil pressure went HIGH with less oil being distributed to all the parts. Less oil is never a good thing.

That being said, we used to have to change tappets and cams a lot more in the old days (pre 1975). We did more valve jobs and overhauls too. My Honda Ridgeline has 190,000 miles on it and I have only had to change the plugs once (130,000) and the timing belt with the water pump (150,000). I did break a spring on the side of a mountain in Utah, but all I have done other than that is to change oil, brakes and tires. That type of benign neglect was a recipe for disaster even through 2000. Most people can't even feel her idle. Of course there is ONE problem. The Cat stopped working @ 100,000 miles causing the Engine Light to come on. I reset it now and again and check that this is the ONLY problem. Maybe using something OTHER than Amsoil would have prevented that?
 

joewithaboat

Lieutenant Junior Grade
Joined
Jul 3, 2011
Messages
1,172
Re: Using "old" lifters with new cam?

Interesting to say the least. After 30 years, I left the automotive field in 1999. I have made it a point to not stay informed. :D For me, the biggest improvement in oils came around the mid to late seventies when we started getting away from Pennsylvania based oils. Too much WAX! Boy, when you took an engine apart from someone who was a Quaker State or Pennsoil fan, you had to evacuate the shop for the burned wax smell to dissipate. Blended motor oils like Mobile and Castrol showed a superior performance with little to no wax build up. Those running the high wax oils often had a 1/2-3/4" buildup on all the metals. Before you ever started washing them with a solvent you tried to scrape as much of that crap off as you could. To help reduce this, we would often suggest to our customers that they add a quart of tarry fluid or Marvel Mystery Oil a day or two before their oil change and make sure the engine was running for at least an hour or two before they in. Synthetics changed all that for me and I have been a fan of AMSOIL for a long, long time.

Most people don't have an idea what the 5W-30 means on the side of the oil can. They see it as really "thin", but at operating temps it has the same viscosity as simple 30 weight oil. 30 weight non-detergent (no-additive) oil was what we ran in the most extreme machines like a roundy round car or a dragster. Too much viscosity and the oil pressure went HIGH with less oil being distributed to all the parts. Less oil is never a good thing.

That being said, we used to have to change tappets and cams a lot more in the old days (pre 1975). We did more valve jobs and overhauls too. My Honda Ridgeline has 190,000 miles on it and I have only had to change the plugs once (130,000) and the timing belt with the water pump (150,000). I did break a spring on the side of a mountain in Utah, but all I have done other than that is to change oil, brakes and tires. That type of benign neglect was a recipe for disaster even through 2000. Most people can't even feel her idle. Of course there is ONE problem. The Cat stopped working @ 100,000 miles causing the Engine Light to come on. I reset it now and again and check that this is the ONLY problem. Maybe using something OTHER than Amsoil would have prevented that?

I cut my teeth on Castrol, My Dad put it in everything. We never had any oil related problems build up or other wise. I have torn apart many engines that were not my own with that build up you discribe. I had always thought that it was from lack of maintenance or faulty pcv system.

I switched to Mobil 1 full synthetic sometime in the mid nineties. You can really tell a difference when disassembling an engine that has been run on full synthetic. Much less wear, very clean, slight discoloration but that's it.
I currently have 6 engines i maintain with Mobil 1. Some high mileage...165k,135k,125k,112k all running great. Engine technology has really gotten good in the last 10 years and that is one reason. However the one with 125k is a 1993 Chevy 5.7 half ton shop truck. Anything but technologically advanced, it runs like new. When i have it emissions tested the guys running the machine are always blown away with how clean it runs.

I did a short stint in a High performance Machine/engine shop for 2 years while in college and learned a ton from watching what other folks did or didn't do. I practically lived at the race track for about 15 years, while single. One thing successful racers all have in common... Good lubricants!
I laugh at folks who cheap out on lubricants.

You have to really keep an eye on the lubricant world. The oils often test different than advertised. They usually have different quality's within the same line. It seems it can usually be traced back to a contract with an auto manufacturer to blend a certain way. A lot of smaller brands are some one else's relabeled.

If you like to read this is a good thread, the screen name "Wingnut" has a lot of inside info on Mobil 1
http://forum.chaparralboats.com/index.php?showtopic=13471&st=0

Regards, Joe :)
 
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