'92 OMC King Cobra 351

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jeff_coombs

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I am currently rebuilding one from a blow engine. I have gotten it all back together and dropped back in my boat. Everything seemed to be going well until I trird to start it. I am getting fuel but cant seem to figure out the ignition system. I tested both sides of the coil and have positive coming from both?? That is my delema... OMC refers to the ignition system as "OMC Spitfire E.E.M".... I am getting frustrated with it. Although I am sure it is something rather simple for those that have the knowledge. If anyone could assist or is in the southeast PA area (Chester County) that I could take it to that would be GREATLY APPRECIATED!!!!! Thanks, Jeff
 

infideltarget

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Re: '92 OMC King Cobra 351

OMG dude...:facepalm:

You have the epitome of the Blessed Trinity for the anti-OMC here!

- Ford 351
- OMC King Cobra
- Spitfire ignition

Wish I could help, but all I can say is good luck! :eek:
 

HT32BSX115

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Re: '92 OMC King Cobra 351

OMG dude...:facepalm:

You have the epitome of the Blessed Trinity for the anti-OMC here!

- Ford 351
- OMC King Cobra
- Spitfire ignition

Wish I could help, but all I can say is good luck! :eek:


Oh come on now....It's not all that bad...............but it IS bad if you have a problem with the "$-hitfire" ignition.

The main problem is that parts are not generally available unless some dealer has some new "old-stock" parts sitting on a back shelf collecting dust someplace and they went out of business.......then someone "found" them and put them on ebay etc............

The fact that you have 12v DC on both sides of the coil really means nothing.

The coil will usually ALWAYS have 12v on one side. The other side goes to the switching transistor circuit in the control box (which you probably cannot buy) that simulates a set of points.......

[test any points type system.......if the points are open,and there's voltage on the "PLUS" side, there'll also be voltage on the "other-side" of the coil!]




1. Get an OEM OMC service manual. (somewhere around $100 usually)

2. If you cannot trouble shoot the system because of an ECM problem, it doesn't mean you're completely "done" It MAY mean that you're done with the "Spitfire" though.....and if that's true...... It WILL mean that you'll need to get a different marine type distributor/ignition system to replace it. (Mallory Marine, MSD Marine etc...)


You have a drive made by a company that is out of business, with an ignition system they only made for a few years, an interim drive that they only made for a few years and an engine (FORD) that was abandoned by both Mercury and Volvo.

It doesn't mean that you're "done" but it does present a LOT of challenges in keeping it running....

Sorry about that......



Oh. Welcome to iBoats!:cool:


Rick
 

infideltarget

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Re: '92 OMC King Cobra 351

Oh come on now....It's not all that bad...............but it IS bad if you have a problem with the "$-hitfire" ignition.




Rick

:D I figured you'd be along shortly when you saw the King Cobra in the the title! :D Never seen all three together before...
All that's left is to put it in a Bayliner... ;)
 

HT32BSX115

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Re: '92 OMC King Cobra 351

A few years ago, A local guy (here in W Wa.) came on this forum asking about his 90-91 460 King Cobra with the infamous Spitfire ignition.

He already knew that he couldn't buy any parts for it. He bought the starter and distributor that I had on my 87 460 and was able to get it back running (so he could sell it)

Unless you can find a dealer that has new old-stock parts, getting a "regular" (marine) distributor is about the only choice out there.... I know that OMC also had an EFI setup too. I think it too would be "done" if the ECM or other OMC specific parts died.


You have the epitome of the Blessed Trinity for the anti-OMC here!
I wouldn't put the Cobra with an SBF (5.0/5.8) in that club.....you can still get manifolds/couplers for them....

Actually the guy above DID HAVE the "epitome" you mention!!


He had the The Cone clutch interim drive, Spitfire ignition, INCLUDING a 460!!
 

paddy 1336

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Re: '92 OMC King Cobra 351

hi jeff....i have same situation as yourself....have to rebuild the engine...roughly what is the cost to do this or is there another engine that would fit....would i have to change the outdrive also??
thanks paddy
 

jeff_coombs

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Re: '92 OMC King Cobra 351

Ok.. Well it seems that the "gods have spoken"!! lol It seems that you all are basically recomending to just go with a new ignition system. Which I am fine with if it is what it is.. I have spent the money and have taken the time (2 years) rebuilding it.. Minus well just throw that one in too right??

Sooo... With that being said.. How do I wire that ome in?? I am going t assume and please correct me if I am wrong.. That I wire it hot to the choke/ignition hot and then to ground and thats it??

paddy 1336 I have taken my time with it and have pretty much replaced everything except for a few nuts, bolts, and brackets.. It cost me around $1,000 to have the block done and then if I had to guess probably about another for everything else>> and now it seems another $400 ish for the ignition system.. I did find the engine rebuilt just recently for around $1400.... And yes the outdrive does have to match.. At least with the King Cobra from what I have learned...
 

HT32BSX115

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Re: '92 OMC King Cobra 351

hi jeff....i have same situation as yourself....have to rebuild the engine...roughly what is the cost to do this or is there another engine that would fit....would i have to change the outdrive also??
thanks paddy

Howdy,


Well, you don't have to "rebuild" the engine if you don't want to. You can actually go to places like Rapido, USENGINE or other (possibly local) engine rebuilders and just exchange your engine for a rebuilt long block. Sometimes a machine shop rebuild is a tad more than a ready-to-go longblock.

You shouldn't have to do anything with your drive if it's otherwise serviceable.

If you have drive problems too, well, It might be a good idea to consider changing it all over to a complete Mercruiser or SEI setup.

If you needed an engine AND a drive, since you'd be replacing the manifolds AND risers, it would also be advantageous to think about going to a GM engine+ Mercruiser (type) drive since they're more supportable these days.

Don't get me wrong, there was NOTHING wrong with the Ford (based) Marine engines.

It's just that no one uses them anymore in stern drives (since the 90's or so....) the aftermarket is beginning (and will continue) to "dry-up" for stuff like manifolds and other marine specific stuff (couplers, etc) making those things more and more expensive.....

It seems that you all are basically recomending to just go with a new ignition system. Which I am fine with if it is what it is..

Well, yes. If yours is broke beyond repair......meaning something NLA is broke. That's why I suggested you get the OEM OMC service manual. The Spitfire ignition system was a complicated system. I wouldn't trust the Seloc or Clymer manuals for troubleshooting it (besides, you need paper to start your woodstove don't you?;))

And yes the outdrive does have to match.. At least with the King Cobra from what I have learned...

This only means that the vertical drive must be the correct ratio. The outdrive that bolted to the 5.8L engine it probably the same ratio as the one that was installed with the 5.7 or 5.0 engines.

The service manuals for those years indicate which drives went with which engines.
 

jeff_coombs

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Re: '92 OMC King Cobra 351

Well, yes. If yours is broke beyond repair......meaning something NLA is broke. That's why I suggested you get the OEM OMC service manual. The Spitfire ignition system was a complicated system. I wouldn't trust the Seloc or Clymer manuals for troubleshooting it (besides, you need paper to start your woodstove don't you?;))


So with that being said.. After reading a few other threads.. Looks like I will be looking for a new system. I have also read up on shift interrupt and a knock sensor?? I am definatly going to need some assistance on this.....
 

jeff_coombs

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Re: '92 OMC King Cobra 351

I would not give up on the Spitfire ignition quite yet. If yu do not have it, I can email you that part of the manual to you if you leave me a Private MEssage with your real email address. (No Hotmail, Yahoo, etc. the file is too large.)

If you do decide to go with a new distributor you can forget the anti-knock sensor, etc. No way to use them.

I have the manual.. TY though!! OK so ditch the knock sensor but what about the shift assist?? Should I just wire it in to the choke hot and then ground and hopefully be done??
 

HT32BSX115

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Re: '92 OMC King Cobra 351

I have also read up on shift interrupt and a knock sensor?? I am definatly going to need some assistance on this.....
That could be more difficult.......I don't know what I would do for a knock sensor unless an MSD or similar dist had a provision for it. (the Mercury Thunderbolt V ignition on my 454 does connect to a knock sensor......Check with MSD or Mallory tech support on what they offer for their marine distributors......

You probably know that the knock sensor is usually a (sound) detector that reduces timing advance ( retards) to prevent (stop) detonation when it "hears" the "knock"

They do that on higher compression engines that use are timed *right* to the point of detonation to get the most power out of them.

You may have to retard timing slightly to prevent detonation..........which will most likely result in a little less HP.

You may also have to discuss shift interrupt with someone that has made a simple ignition interrupt work.

The Dog-Clutch Cobras REALLY need the torque-reduction "pulse" provided by the OMC ESA (electronic-shift-assist).......Without it they're REALLY hard, sometimes nearly impossible to get out of gear without damaging the lower shift cable....

Yours is a cone-clutch shifting system? Simple ignition interrupt might be adequate.

Mercury cone-clutch drives don't use ignition-interrupt getting out of gear (I don't know about Volvo which is based on the OMC design)
 

Lou C

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Re: '92 OMC King Cobra 351

I don't think any of the Volvo drives with cone clutch shifting used an ignition interrupt to get it out of gear, that was one of the advertised advantages of cone clutch vs dog clutch shifting...
With my boat, I've considered a few options when the time comes, a Volvo SX swap (good alternative but expensive due to the cost of the drive), SEI Alpha swap (lots more affordable, but I'd like to see how well the adapted pivot housing/shift linkage actually works in shifting the Alpha) or a complete re-fit to a Merc transom assembly and SEI drive. This last option, I may do if I need to replace the engine, it would just make more sense to me to have everything Merc and not have to worry about any OMC stuff any longer. I have to say I have been lucky getting parts, I do have a spare set of the NLA one piece V-6 manifolds that I bought when they started going up in price. BUT even that issue has a solution in the aftermarket (one piece to two piece conversion).
 

zbnutcase

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Re: '92 OMC King Cobra 351

A few years ago, A local guy (here in W Wa.) came on this forum asking about his 90-91 460 King Cobra with the infamous Spitfire ignition.

He already knew that he couldn't buy any parts for it. He bought the starter and distributor that I had on my 87 460 and was able to get it back running (so he could sell it)

Unless you can find a dealer that has new old-stock parts, getting a "regular" (marine) distributor is about the only choice out there.... I know that OMC also had an EFI setup too. I think it too would be "done" if the ECM or other OMC specific parts died.


I wouldn't put the Cobra with an SBF (5.0/5.8) in that club.....you can still get manifolds/couplers for them....

Actually the guy above DID HAVE the "epitome" you mention!!


He had the The Cone clutch interim drive, Spitfire ignition, INCLUDING a 460!!

Sierra now has 460 King Cobra couplers
 

HT32BSX115

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Re: '92 OMC King Cobra 351

Sierra now has 460 King Cobra couplers

Yeah. Sierra 18-21754! That's going to be a life saver for some people huh?

Lessee......new manifolds $1500, risers $500, coupler $400.......For $2400 (+ tax shipping and installation) you could get yer 460 King Kobra back on the water!!

hmm.....


NAH! I'll stick with Merc/Volvo!!
 

jeff_coombs

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Re: '92 OMC King Cobra 351

New MSD electronic distributer will be in today!! Hopefully I will get to hear it run later on!!
 

Don S

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Re: '92 OMC King Cobra 351

but what about the shift assist??

You do realize having an ESA module also means you DO NOT have the King Cobra with the cone clutch, you just have the common King Cobra with dog style clutches. Which means you are not out of luck for drive parts.
The coupler for your engine can be purchased from Volvo, between 94 and 98 Volvo and OMC were in a joint venture, and they also used the Ford engines (Except 460), same with exhaust manifolds and risers.
 

jeff_coombs

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Re: '92 OMC King Cobra 351

Don, I am good with the drive and exhaust. My issue is with spark.. TY though!!
 

HT32BSX115

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Re: '92 OMC King Cobra 351

There was 2 92 model 5.8L engines that used a "interupter" switch with the spitfire ignition.

Those models were also cone clutch drives.

Go to http://epc.brp.com (you don't have to put in your email)

select Sterndrive and find your year and model



The first four models below used dog-clutch drives and distributor/coil ignition systems.


584APLAMH 1992

584APLAMK 1992

584APRAMH 1992

584APRAMK 1992



The last 2 models used Cone clutch drives and Spitfire ignition systems.

584DPEAMH 1992
584DPEAMK 1992

They also used an "interrupt switch"

Unless someone has changed your engine and/or drive around since 1992, and you still have Spitfire ignition, you'll probably have the cone clutch drive.


Compare the pictures/parts breakout on the BRP parts site with what you have. The 2 drives are pretty easy to tell apart.

Using the MSD distributor, you may be able to get away without a shift interupt switch but you might be able to use the existing switch with the new distributor.

Talk to MSD tech support. There's probably a lot more than a few people that have had to replace an OMC sgitfire with one of those excellent MSD distributors!!

You will want to operate that drive correctly and gently. There's not a lot of parts available for them. You break it trying to force it out of gear and you may be as done as you were with the ignition!!


Cheers,


Rick
 

Don S

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Re: '92 OMC King Cobra 351

Uhhhh Rick, I said ESA module, not shift interrupt switch.
 

HT32BSX115

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Re: '92 OMC King Cobra 351

Uhhhh Rick, I said ESA module, not shift interrupt switch.


Yup. But he didn't say ESA he said "shift assist".

I must have missed something in the OPs original post. I was under the impression that he was rebuilding his OMC 92 model 5.8L Electronic ignition engine.


I thought he said he had a spitfire ignition. That system didn't use an ESA. The (4) 1992 "5.8L/dogs" that used distributor/coil ignition did .......


According to BRP's parts breakdown, The 2 models using the Spitfire Ignition, use an interrupt switch connected to the ignition module and have cone clutch drives in back.....

#12 below.....
convert.png



I suppose the real question now is did this engine and drive originally have OMC Spitfire electronic ignition?


If it didn't then the drive IS a "Dog" and WILL need an ESA to work right.

I don't know if anyone has successfully gotten dog-clutch Cobras to work with a simple ignition interrupt but I think OMC would have used a simple switch instead of the Electronic Shift Assist (ESA) if it worked ok......




JEFF.......which drive do you have on the back?

Does the top cover Look like the one below? (flat)
dogdrive.png


Or does it have a "hump" like the top cover on the cone clutch drive below?
conedrive.png
 
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