Would this work?

Dennis4b

Seaman
Joined
Nov 10, 2001
Messages
51
Hi,<br /><br />First post to this board which seems to be excellent!<br /><br />A friend and I bought a boat a few weeks ago, a Flipper 620HT, Finnish design so probably only known locally. It's 6.20m by 2.45m (20' about I guess).<br /><br />We both have more of an EE/CS background than mechanics but with the help of some friends and engine diagrams we were able to get the 1979 Johnson (v4, 85hp, 2-stroke) running after it had been unused for several years. <br /><br />The boat runs about 25knots at what seems to be WOT, though we have no RPM gauge yet since the controls and gauges were for a different (and since stolen from the previous owner) engine, so we had to rewire everything by trial-and-error between the new controls and throttle cables and the engine.<br /><br />Within a week though the boat will be taken out and winterized and our list of winter projects (although pretty big already) is not yet long enough :) <br /><br />To cut the story a bit shorter I'll leave out most of the motivations, but we're not completely happy with the engine's performance (mostly starting it!) and are thinking about ways to modify it in a way that would allows us more control of what is going on rather than getting into the black art of finely tuned mechanics (think carbs, jets, reeds, etc).<br /><br />Semi :) short version of an idea:<br />Take away both carbs and the reed valves. In the now existing space, connect a manifold+gasket (a friend should be able to put something together :) sealing the crankcase.<br /><br />Now, my understanding of the engine principles is as follows, so please correct me if I'm wrong! Inside the crank case is always an under pressure compared to atmospheric pressure due to the piston actions (when the engine needs more air/fuel). The reed valves open because of this and air is sucked in through the carbs and reed valves, and is throttled by a butterfly valve. This throttling would mean the crank case is never actually pressurized up to atmospheric pressure unless maybe during WOT? So the engine is throttled by the underpressure in the crank case, which is the amount of fuel/air available for the next power stroke.<br /><br />Now, back to the plan :) <br /><br />The new manifold has an electronically controlled air valve in series with an air flow sensor. We would time this valve to open at the right time (when the reed valves would open in a normal engine), and throttle by varying the duty cycle of this valve. Open-longer means more air. Crankcase underpressure would take care of moving the air. Based on the readings of the air flow sensor a fuel injector also present in this manifold would inject fuel into the crankcase at the 14.67:1 stochio ratio of air-to-fuel. A lamda (oxygen) sensor in the exhaust could help finetune the fuel injection? (does this work the same as for 4-strokes?)<br /><br />Oil would either be pre-mixed (if the fuel injector nozzle can handle the oil) or injected seperately via another injector.<br /><br />If this were to actually work (I'll put up a webpage with lots of pictures and graphs to brag about it :)) it should mean smooth operation (for example a healthy idle) over the entire RPM range and better fuel consumption than currently? Choking can be done by increasing fuel injector duty cycle.<br /><br />Did I miss any fundemental problems? Should there be an air pressure sensor inside the crankcase and throttle according to it's readings? <br /><br />Any comments or suggestions or ideas? :) Note that is not to say we would mind if the engine ran perfectly in stock configuration, it's as much "want" as "need", who doesn't like to experiment? :)
 

oar master

Seaman Apprentice
Joined
Nov 3, 2001
Messages
43
Re: Would this work?

just my .02 here but, u have a 20ft. boat powered by an 85hp outboard. your getting 25mph at wot. it sounds to me that the boat is underpowered, i don't think you'll get to much more out of her. just my opinion.
 

Dennis4b

Seaman
Joined
Nov 10, 2001
Messages
51
Re: Would this work?

I knew someone was going to say that :)<br /><br />It's probably true, but well, them's the breaks. I love the boat itself, and we have great fun boating around here, when we go somewhere with a group of friends we all cruise at 20-22 knots anyway.<br /><br />So basically .. I would love a bigger engine, but if a top speed of 25knots is the only thing wrong with this engine I can really not justify to spend anything on a bigger one :) <br /><br />Any thoughts on the above idea though? It's not really for performance improvements. More for reliability and effeciency.
 

petryshyn

Commander
Joined
Oct 3, 2001
Messages
2,851
Re: Would this work?

Ditto oar master <br /><br />I'm no expert or engineer, but.....there's a fly in the ointment......<br /><br />>The crankcase does get pressurized above atmosphere on each compression stroke. The extremely fast reed valves can react to this faster than any valve with physical mass could ever dream!!! I can't see a physical valve opening and closing even 10 times a second just at idle!! Think you better leave the reeds in. <br />>>What would be neat is to lose the carbs > build a tuned manifold > screw in an injector > map the fuel requirements > build a feed back system (02 monitoring) > inject the oil through the crank (better oiling) and........wait, they've already done it....dam...LOL<br /><br />Oh , by the way, I think that is a reliable motor....may just need some TLC!!<br /><br />Good luck guys...Trial and error is the mother of invention!!<br /> :) :)
 

Fouled Plug

Ensign
Joined
Jun 29, 2001
Messages
935
Re: Would this work?

Carbs with a couple jets and a mixture screw is a 'black art' compared to the proposed setup? Whew! I would suggest a test tach and a compression test to see if your RPM's and pressures are where they should be. Then tune/prop the motor accordingly. If the fuel/ignition/cooling systems all check out, it would be far easier to trade it in on a bigger engine that to make the Six Million Dollar OMC out of it. :D
 

Hooty

Rear Admiral
Joined
Oct 2, 2001
Messages
4,496
Re: Would this work?

I think what you're proposing would be neat but a real "project". If you just need a little more power for your boat, go to http://home.columbus.rr.com/n8wct/ .<br />These guys may have the answer your looking for. Let us know what you think.<br /><br />Good luck & c/6<br /><br />hooty
 

Dennis4b

Seaman
Joined
Nov 10, 2001
Messages
51
Re: Would this work?

Hey... I looked at that jet engine boat ages ago. Really liked the idea too, except fuel consumption would be bad :) <br /><br />As for the engine, compression tests done a few weeks ago yielded 9:1 compression on each cilinder, give or take 2%. (Sorry, don't remember psi/lbs etc weird figures :) So that should be snug.<br /><br />How about Boyenson reeds? Like I said if the engine starts fine (turn-key-start ****it! :) and runs fine that'll do just great.<br /><br />The only times the engine has actually failed while running is when it was getting a fuel:water ratio of more than 1:1 ;) <br /><br />Oh and it doesn't like to idle, usually wets the plugs (real pain to take them out and clean them!) But I guess all that can be resolved with lots of TLC in the off-season like Schematic said :) <br /><br />I will come back here with lots of questions and requests for advice and I'm sure every now and then I'll suggest some weeird ideas! This board looks great though, so thank you all in advance!
 

Dennis4b

Seaman
Joined
Nov 10, 2001
Messages
51
Re: Would this work?

Ohh.. I see my post has been censored! Sorry, it wasn't the f-word or anything! It was the d-word :D
 
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