When did Four Winns go with Wood Free Construction?

[Rookster]

Doing some brand research on construction methods as part of my used-boat shopping and wondering if anyone knows when Four Winns converted entirely to wood-free boats. In particular, does anyone have or know of the Horizon 170 or 180 bowriders, 1999 and beyond, still having any wood in the stringers below the fiberglass/gelcoated deck? Or in the transom? Are newer Four Winns fiberglass decks/stringers/transom susseptable to stress cracks or spider cracks?

 

[tpenfield]

I do not know that Four Winns has gone wood free.

I think you might be referring to the VEC hull construction technology, which Glastron, Larson and Four Winns use to build some of their boats. It basically applies to the main stringers on smaller boats. The other components of the boat (transom, bulkhead, etc) typically are wood cored as they have always been.

Many folks hear that the stringers are not wood and then assume there is no wood in the boat. Basically not true. There are some wood-free boats brands out there, but I do not believe that Four Winns is one of them.

I have also read that Four Winns transitioned away from the VEC molding process back to traditional open mold construction.

 

[tpenfield]

I do see that Four Winns states "Fiberglass Stringers" on their web site for their current boats. The problem is that most manufacturers are pretty vague about how they build their boats and terminology used can be interpreted a variety of ways. . . like "fiberglass encapsulated", "fiberglass composite", "wood-free", etc.

 

[jkust]

If it has snap out carpet, the floor will be fiberglass (vs carpet over wood), but thinking that is mid 2000's or so on those smaller boats...some brands were quick to go to the glass floor with snap out carpet option such as Chaparral and others offered it on larger boats then finally on their smaller boats. Crownline is another that took way too long to go to the all fiberglass floor on their smaller boats. Any fiberglass is subject to cracking if it has gelcoat on it. VEC seemed like a great thing as I believe it is actually all fiberglass in its totality if you take a look at the videos out there of the production process but the reality of it not being hand laid is that it is cheaper to mass produce the boats but that even the hidden areas are finished in gelcoat. I remember the news story here in MN when VEC came out as it started here and was toubted as a revolutionary change to boat construction I believe in the Larson factory if my recollection is correct as it has been so many years. The thing is that the qualities of wood in the construction process are tough to beat as wood is a good thing in a boat aside from the susceptibility to rot which isn't an issue if you can verify condition. I can tell you that at least on Chaparrals the model year change from 2000 to 2001 was a monumental design change year as they cut down on most of the wood in their boats and went to hard plastics or fiberglass and flow through type materials in their seat cushions..betting Fourwinns was about the same time or just a year or two behind. A 2000 and a 2001 have almost nothing materials and design wise in common though outwardly you would just think the hull design changed a bit. Point is a year can make a huge difference in wood content being wood in the places you don't want wood.

 

[Rookster]

I looked at a 2004 Chaparral 180 SEi and it had a wooden deck with glued down carpet. Same on a 2000 Crownline. Crownline started doing fiberglass encased wood stringers, but then m not sure when. They did use XL treated marine grade ply starting in 1998. The ski locker of the Crown had moisture between the removable plastic liners and it's fiberglass shell. That was in March on a day when temperatures rose above freezing. Don't know if that's normal.

Anyway, sounds like a 1999 FW would have either wood or VEC stringers.

 

[Rookster]

Buying a boat is so much tougher than buying a car. With a car, it's easy to see rot/rust anywhere...not so with a boat!

 

[89retta]

I know Caravelle boats are 100 percent wood free since 2004. Love my 2004 187 its wood free , walk through transom and 2 foot swim platform.

 

[ondarvr]

When companies transition to changes like "wood free", it normally happens over several seasons, as new tooling for each style is put into production the changes are made. Tooling is a huge expense, so they don't normally change it all over at one time. Some companies may take many years to convert the low priced models in their line up, if they do it at all.

 

[jbcurt00]

Paralysis by analysis

How many boats have you put hands on so far. If less the several dozen, get out and look at some.

Good news for your bank acct, if you pick 1 boat brand, 1 model (based on length/motor), w only the engine and options you want, in a narrow lower price window, that needs virtuallly no work to the boat, motor and trailer when you get it home, it'll likely take a very long time to find a boat, let alone buy it.

 

[Rookster]

No Title

I looked at a 2004 Chaparral 180 SEi and it had a wooden deck with glued down carpet. Same on a 2000 Crownline. Crownline started doing fiberglass encased wood stringers, but then m not sure when. They did use XL treated marine grade ply starting in 1998. The ski locker of the Crown had moisture between the removable plastic liners and it's fiberglass shell. That was in March on a day when temperatures rose above freezing. Don't know if that's normal.

Anyway, sounds like a 1999 FW would have either wood or VEC stringers.

Here are pictures of the ski locker mentioned above - note the plastic liner in the first picture (which was moist underneath) and the underside of the plywood floor in the second picture...note that it is two different colours, one darker, indicating that the lighter colour part may had to have been newly replaced?? Cause for concern??

 

[jkust]

I looked at a 2004 Chaparral 180 SEi and it had a wooden deck with glued down carpet. Same on a 2000 Crownline. Crownline started doing fiberglass encased wood stringers, but then m not sure when. They did use XL treated marine grade ply starting in 1998. The ski locker of the Crown had moisture between the removable plastic liners and it's fiberglass shell. That was in March on a day when temperatures rose above freezing. Don't know if that's normal.

Anyway, sounds like a 1999 FW would have either wood or VEC stringers.

The Chaparral 180 was about the cheapest Chap offered when they produced it...you needed to look at the 183ss produced in 2002 and 2003 which became the 190ssi in 2004. While the 180sse was the same loa as the 183ss/190ssi it was almost a full thousand pounds lighter due to it's very entry level position in their line up. I actually forgot they even offered the bottom rung chap line which was sort of Chap in name only almost yet still as nice as most of the competition that competed with the 183 and 190. The glass floor with snap in carpet came on the 2002 183ss as their earliest/smallest boat as the hull was new for 2002 while snap in carpet came a year earlier on their ssi line of boats by about a year or so for which the SSI line starte a couple feet bigger (then was offered as small as 18'3" in 04 as mentioned above). Crownline didn't have an optional better 18 footer back then that had the standard glass floor...it took them a few more years to add it in as a standard on their 18 footer. Small Crownlines though tended to have MPI engines more often for some reason than the smaller Chaps...Either that's how dealers ordered them or the buyers for some reason sprung for the MPI engines all the way back to the first year of v6 and small block v8 mpi being model year 2002. Chap made big strides for their 2001 and 2002 model years with all of their new hulls and new state of the art materials but they kept the sse line going as-it for a bit longer.

 

[jkust]

I know Caravelle boats are 100 percent wood free since 2004. Love my 2004 187 its wood free , walk through transom and 2 foot swim platform.

Their advirtisements used to be a beaver with the slogan 'no wood is good' don't know if they still use that or not. The properties of wood in a boat are actually a good thing...the owners neglect and crappy construction are the problem. In a perfect world, every owner would be diligent and there would be no construction defects and there's be no need for all fiberglass....no wood is a nice little insurance policy.

 

[Rookster]

On a slightly different note - one of my issues with the Four Winns H170, was that it had those back-to-back seats that fold down into loungers. Anyone have experience with those kind of seats? Can they raise and lower for driving position at the helm? Can they slide back and forth allowing you to adjust your sitting distance from the steering wheel?

 

[jbcurt00]

No, back to back or laid out lounger and none in the verical.

AGAIN: How many boats have you put your hands ON?

Asking this suggest few, very few. The internet is a great learning tool, but it'll only get you so far. LOOKING at actual boats, crawling around inside them, putting your hands all over them and talking to sellers is important, probably more so.

Read this sticky
http://forums.iboats.com/forum/gener...er-s-checklist

DOZENS of times so you remember most of it while actually looking at boats.

 

[Rookster]

No, back to back or laid out lounger and none in the verical.

AGAIN: How many boats have you put your hands ON?

Asking this suggest few, very few. The internet is a great learning tool, but it'll only get you so far. LOOKING at actual boats, crawling around inside them, putting your hands all over them and talking to sellers is important, probably more so.

Read this sticky
http://forums.iboats.com/forum/gener...er-s-checklist

DOZENS of times so you remember most of it while actually looking at boats.

I've put my hands on about a dozen boats, including one with the above seating type...but I couldn't remember that detail. And yes, I crawled around them, took pictures above deck and below, and spent a couple hours in them. It simple doesn't make sense to do that though, if the boats are - far and few between, over my budget, don't even meet my criteria from the ad, all 2hrs away in various directions or still in storage. In this market, people are buying boats without seeing them, water testing them, etc. waiting for Spring means higher prices and/or shopping all summer so we can boat next year. But the kids aren't getting any younger! Lol

 

[jkust]

On a slightly different note - one of my issues with the Four Winns H170, was that it had those back-to-back seats that fold down into loungers. Anyone have experience with those kind of seats? Can they raise and lower for driving position at the helm? Can they slide back and forth allowing you to adjust your sitting distance from the steering wheel?

I don't like that style of seating at all. There's not a lot of adjusting you can do to lay down style. I prefer the chair style with the flip up bolster. You can move rearward or forward with the chair style ans swivel as well. It's nice so you don't ever have to deal with the windshield frame right in your field of view plus you can stand at the helm while underway and generally adjust the steering wheel with the tilt wheel and things work out nicely.

 

[Rookster]

I don't like that style of seating at all. There's not a lot of adjusting you can do to lay down style. I prefer the chair style with the flip up bolster. You can move rearward or forward with the chair style ans swivel as well. It's nice so you don't ever have to deal with the windshield frame right in your field of view plus you can stand at the helm while underway and generally adjust the steering wheel with the tilt wheel and things work out nicely.

Thanks for confirming!

 

[Rookster]

Paralysis by analysis

How many boats have you put hands on so far. If less the several dozen, get out and look at some.

Good news for your bank acct, if you pick 1 boat brand, 1 model (based on length/motor), w only the engine and options you want, in a narrow lower price window, that needs virtuallly no work to the boat, motor and trailer when you get it home, it'll likely take a very long time to find a boat, let alone buy it.

True story.

 

[jbcurt00]

It wouldnt be a bad thing to see another 2 dozen boats before you buy 1.

Same paralysis happens in the resto topics about how to do much of the stuff you've mentioned being fearful of finding post purchase.