What's your response to these moral and legal questions?

Tinkerer

Senior Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Mar 15, 2003
Messages
760
Nine Australians have been arrested recently in Indonesia for attempting to smuggle heroin back to Australia. Some or all of them are facing the death penalty. It is becoming increasingly clear that at least some of them were coerced into it to some degree by threats against their families. One of them is seen and heard on a police video shortly after arrest telling another one to say nothing because we're dead but if we talk our families will die too. Whether they're total victims or just had the threats made to shore up something they'd already agreed to do, perhaps without knowing the stuff they were going to be carrying, remains to be seen.<br /><br /> http://www.abc.net.au/am/content/2005/s1351177.htm <br /><br />What sort of threat would make you do something you didn't want to do or that you knew was dishonest or wrong?<br /><br />Forget the macho BS about getting a gun and sorting them out or standing up for what's right regardless of the consequences.<br /><br />In the real world you can be caught up as easily as a mate of mine who was subpoeaned as a witness in a court case about a relatively minor car accident he'd witnessed. He didn't know either driver, owner, or anyone else involved in it. A couple of days before the hearing he got a visit at home from a couple of heavies who made it clear to him that they knew where he lived (why else visit him at home?); where he worked; where his wife worked; and the routes they travelled. If he'd had kids at the time they would no doubt have told him where the kids went to school and how they got to and from school. It was made clear to my mate that it wouldn't be in his or his wife's interests to say anything that was adverse to the interests of the driver of the flash Mercedes which had actually caused the collision. My mate had no idea who these blokes were or where to find them, or who they worked for, although obviously they were applying pressure for the benefit of the Merc driver. He couldn't find them to retaliate, even if he wanted to. Even if he could find them and even kill them, not that he would, there would be others to replace them. He was sh!tting himself, and I would have been too. <br /><br />No prizes for guessing how he gave his forgetful evidence.<br /><br />He perjured himself. Should he have been prosecuted? Would you convict him? In the same situation, would you really have done any different?<br /><br />If someone commits a crime under the same sort of pressure, as might be the case with some of the Australians in Indonesia, are they really guilty?<br /><br />If, as seems to be the case in Indonesia, the bloke who ran it and made the threats didn't carry any drugs, would you slug him or the mules harder on penalty?
 

JB

Honorary Moderator Emeritus
Joined
Mar 25, 2001
Messages
45,907
Re: What's your response to these moral and legal questions?

I guess this boils down to what do you do if threatened, and what is the accountability of those who threaten you.<br /><br />Don't know a thing about Indonesian law and very little about how US laws would deal with this.<br /><br />Threatening someone in attempt to get them to do illegal/immoral/dishonest stuff has to be a serious crime anywhere. Really hard to prosecute, but it should be put in the hands of law enforcement. I truly think that most threats of this kind are empty, because carrying them out would be a piece of cake to prosecute and the baddys are trying to avoid prosecution.<br /><br />If you break the law, you must pay. Threatened or not.<br /><br />That's my view.
 

neumanns

Lieutenant Commander
Joined
Mar 1, 2003
Messages
1,926
Re: What's your response to these moral and legal questions?

Tink, I can kinda see your point. I did not read the info on the link, but here's my take.<br /><br />First even if they were cohearced to some degree they had to have some reason for being chosen. Surly the thugs didn't pick up a couple of nun's coming out the convent and say carry or else. They were involved at some level to begin with, they usally don't start as kingpins they start small and work there way up.<br /><br />If they did not consider the full consequences before they went that is there problem. Even my children know when they are doing somthing inherantly wrong though many times they do not understand the full consequences...they know and understand.<br /><br />Being a mule may be low on the totem pole but ya gotta start somwhere. Had that stuff made it to the schoolyard and resulted in death would we still be willing to give a free pass or is it better to make an example to discourage this behavior.<br /><br />Even the bloke who ran it was smart enoufgh to understand ya don't get caught carring drugs. There all the same in my eyes...<br /><br />It does seem like an awfully high price to pay but ignorance of the law is no excuse, and they knew what they were doing was wrong...they were just counting on not getting caught. To bad.....
 

brother chris

Commander
Joined
Jul 28, 2002
Messages
2,063
Re: What's your response to these moral and legal questions?

Well, if it was a small collision, which, in your opinion, is not that much of a big deal and some heavies came by to inform me not to say anything. <br />Well, you have to think of it this way: obviously something WAY bigger is going on than just this little fender bender. There is something much bigger than a car mishap going on, much bigger.<br />I think the chap is probably in a mob, or part of a family, who has a criminal record and will do lenghty time if convicted of this peddly little accident. <br />If it came down to this and heavies came to my house to inform me not to say anything. I think I would forget about what I saw, BUT, it would not end there. Something else would happen to get justice for the unfortunate person who was in the other vehicle. <br />Justice would prevail, but not by the courts though. <br />I cannot say how/where/when or with who it would be done, but rest assured, they would get theirs.<br />Heavies DO NOT SHOW UP unless there is a family behind them. NEVER EVER underestimate heavies, EVER. It would be foolish to do that.<br />The h*ll if I am going to jail or dying for someone elses drug dealing.<br />Your other question is, should he be punished for lying...well, if he is caught, I guess so. That is the choice you make if you want to lie. <br />Now, if I was being forced to carry drugs for someone, even if it was my family being threatened, not a chance. I would not carry any drugs for anyone. It is not that hard to move to another location and get out of the situation you are in. <br />I know some people might say I am crazy for moving, but really, it is all about choices. <br />Choose your life, make your decisions and deal with it as it comes. <br />I could only be pushed so far, then MY heavies would make an appearance. <br />Choices...make em right, or pay the consiquences(sp)
 

demsvmejm

Master Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Jul 4, 2004
Messages
831
Re: What's your response to these moral and legal questions?

Die with dignity and integrity or live in shame? Seems like an easy answer to me. If those were the ohly choices, death would be honorable, and hopefully God would look favorably upon my actions. <br />Moving is not as easy as it seems, but to protect ones family, it's not that hard either. I'd let the authorities know what happened and then disappear.
 

jtexas

Fleet Admiral
Joined
Oct 13, 2003
Messages
8,646
Re: What's your response to these moral and legal questions?

Would you ask someone to put their life & their family's life in jeopardy for your economic gain? I mean if you were the plaintiff in the car crash case? Probably not. There's no shame in not giving evidence in that case.<br /><br />In the drug smuggling case, I learned from watching Law and Order that coersion of the type described is a valid criminal defense in New York.
 

sue5878

Petty Officer 3rd Class
Joined
Mar 30, 2005
Messages
91
Re: What's your response to these moral and legal questions?

On the Aussies. I heard or read (if u believe what u read) that the threats occurred in Bali, which would lead me to suspect that they had agreed to the trip and got cold feet shortly before leaving.<br /><br />Media here say that they agreed to bring back "a package" in exchange for a trip and $10,000. When they found out what they were bringing back they got cold feet. I guess its possible they thought they were bringing back clothing or something similar(yeh).<br /><br />Old saying 'don't do the crime if u can't do the time". That said, I do feel for the families as they will live with the consequences of the actions of the alledged offenders.<br /><br />Might sound hard but if lienency is shown because of the threats, every offender caught in the future will have the same response.<br /><br />Traffic accident is not so easy because that was in innocent witness. I'll stand mute on that one.<br /><br />GR
 

deputydawg

Lieutenant Commander
Joined
Aug 29, 2004
Messages
1,607
Re: What's your response to these moral and legal questions?

Most of the big drug movers would never trust someone to carry their dope unless they had every detail worked out prior. Here I have taken down loads where someone will hire a driver to move a vehicle, but the dope is usually hidden in the vehicle. A few years ago an elderly couple in their late 60's took a job driving a motor home across country. The man that hired them claimed he purchased the motorhome at an auction in their home state. He did not have time to drive it home, and it would cost too much to go back, so he hired this old couple. Paid all travel expenses and a plane ticket home. They figured a free vacation for them. But when they were caught the surprise was obvious. They never qustioned why all of the cupboards in the motorhome were locked and they had no keys. <br />The only mules I have ever caught that were in fear of retaliation were hired specificaly for the delivery. They were threatened that if they got caught it would be their own fault. This would mark them for retaliation. <br />I can't imagine any drug dealer trusting anyone with their dope if they had to force them into delivering. They would be a high liability. If a dealer forces a user into being a mule to re-pay a debt, that user will be too likely to dip into the shipment for himself. Either they hope this will get them off, or they have been threatened against getting caught. It would only make sense for the boss to eliminate them. They have way too much to lose if they are convicted so why not make a deal and save their own lives. Knowing this the dealer could have them eliminated to eliminate this risk. The threat to the family is just a kicker to seal the deal for them. <br />The question about the traffic witness to me is an easy one to answer. Why would someone go to trouble of committing a felony by threatening a witness for a traffic accident. If someone really had the money to hire mopes to do the threatening, why would they worry even the least about a traffic accident? I have dealt with people who have threatened witnesses. The witness will turn them in, I will hook them up and lock them down. They usually cry like a baby then, and nobody gets killed in the process. Most of the tough acts are just that....acts. <br />I don't know what I would do if faced with the idea of my family being involved, but my initial gut reaction right now is I would have to be honest and do the right thing. Nothing to do with pride or fear, it is just the right thing to do. In my job I have had turds tell me they were going to retaliate against my family, even had one group of 3 or 4 that chose to sit in front of my house. After arresting them and taking their dope, three brothers decided to park in their vehicles in front of my house. This with threats against me personally made me angry. I got several of my friends from work to come and wait a block away. I went out the back, came up on them and convinced them to find a new parking place. My buddies were just there for effect.
 

Ross J

Lieutenant Junior Grade
Joined
Nov 30, 2001
Messages
1,119
Re: What's your response to these moral and legal questions?

Well said deputydawg.<br />Down here everybody knows that Indonesia has the death penality for drugs and yet we hear of it in the paper with regular monotony.<br />These people knew they were carrying, they knew it was wrong, they knew they stood to make $10,000Aus (which isn't much compared to US $).<br />They all knew from numerous news sources the penalty for having drugs in Indonesia. <br />They now face the consequences of their actions and scream for the Australian Government to help them! Why, were they going to pay tax on the $10.000?<br />It may seem insular to say the least but as long as there's somebody being charged through this strict regime then thats all the deterrent others need. <br />If people want to flaunt that then they know the possible consequences of their actions and by taking the drugs to Indonesia strapped to their bodies they are making a huge statement to the Indonesian authorities that they don't care for their rules. They invite the harshest punishment by doing so!<br />Sorry for them, yes, I'm sorry they didn't learn to behave properly in the first place. I'm sorry they didn't head the voice within that most certainly told them they were going to get into trouble big time if caught. I'm sorry they thought they could go against this rule and get away with it.<br />I'm sorry for their clear disregard for their own life and the effect this will have on others, like loved ones and family, who will no doubt spend a lot of money and time trying to get them home to Austrailia.<br />I'm also sorry for Indonesia who would rather they didn't have to prosecute aliens flaunting their laws. I'm sure they would rather the Aussies involved had simply stayed away. After all the recent Indonesian history shows them working very closely with the Austrailian authorities in the wake of violence and killings from terrorists.<br />Ross
 
Top