What size beam (Update. Success & pics)

[QC]

. . . can temporarily support 1000 lbs hung in the middle of 9 foot span?

Here's the deal . . . I am buying a project boat. It is a 19 ft. Chris Craft replica which I'll share more about in the Boat, Engine and Restore sections soon. Anyway, I have to lift her off the trailer, and place her on a work dolly, and I have to turn her over twice, and I have to lift her off the dolly and back onto the trailer and I have to drop in an engine and trans. So I figure I need more than a cherry picker, but I could use whatever I come up with to drop in the engine and trans combo as well. So I am thinking of using a beam in my garage lengthwise, hang it from joist hangers between two headers, one header is at the front of the garage, and the other is a mega-header that runs across the middle that supports the second story of the house. It is very stout. For the turns and lifts I was going to use two slings at each end of the 9 foot span with two chain hoists hanging on the beam. Run the slings through some sort of wide flat bearing/spinnable type deal and "roll" the slings through the bearings and literally roll the hull over inside the slings. These lifts will not include the engine and trans in the boat.

For the engine/trans lift. I want to use one or both of the hoists, but it will be more centrally loaded on the beam as opposed to the ends for the sling. So I figure that the worst case for loading this new beam would be 1000 lbs of engine and trans (not that heavy, but want to be conservative) hanging in the middle. What size beam should I consider as a minimum? Any other ideas?

I don't want to build a rollover cradle as I need the hoist for the engine anyway, I want to be able to turn her with only 2 or 3 guys helping, also I'd like to have the whole deal for other projects. I can get 2 ton chain hoists for around $40 ea., which seems like a bargain. An engine leveler is around $20. It seems like I can get this all together for under $200. I can get the engine bottom about 6 feet in the air the way I have it figured as I have a 9'4" ceiling and I need room for the beam and a little room to hang stuff over it . . .

 

[wildmaninal]

Re: What size beam . . .

Re: What size beam . . .

Just a suggestion, get some 2x3 steel square tubing at whatever length you desire. My father and I made a tractor boom out of that tubing and it holds up very well. I know for sure you can put over a 1000 plus pounds of pressure on one of those. We used the boom to lift big logs and more. It should be light enough to man handle also. If your not sure of one 2x3, double it up even weld them together if you want then you darn sure wouldn't half to worry about it. The boom is around 10ft long. Check out the boom at my site "http:www.freewebs.com/wild1979inal" under my modifications and creations link
If you use a cherry picker to take the motor out be very careful. I was at my wits end trying to deal with the one that we borrowed to take the motor out of my fathers truck, I found it to be a little dangerous myself just my opinion. Some of them are not well built at all.

 

[Ezrider_92356]

Re: What size beam . . .

Re: What size beam . . .

i have pulled engines out of trucks before using an a frame biult out of 4x4's and it didn't fail but just cause it worked for me doesn't mean it was safe i never felt unsafe with it but i don't want to say 4x4's will work and have it fail on you

 

[tashasdaddy]

Re: What size beam . . .

Re: What size beam . . .

what are the beam sizes, and what are they made up of. as always some pics will help. 45 years in building.

 

[45Auto]

Re: What size beam . . .

Re: What size beam . . .

So I understand the supports on the beam will be 9' apart, QC? And you'll be lifting the engine in the middle, 4 1/2 feet from each support? That'll determine the bending moment and size the beam. Any particular material you're looking at that you can get cheap? Wood, steel I-beam, steel square tube, steel pipe, etc.? Hopefully I'll get a chance to look something up at work tomorrow.

 

[JRJ]

Re: What size beam . . .

Re: What size beam . . .

You say beam, I think wood. Steel 6" heavy wall pipe would be my pick. Good luck.

 

[Bigprairie1]

Re: What size beam . . .

Re: What size beam . . .

QC how much vertical space do you have to work with in mounting a beam? ie: 6"/10"/12" or?
Do you have a targeted 'rest point' for either end of the 9' span?
Do you have an anticipated connection component for the lifting? ie: an existing sling apparatus or equivalent?
1000lbs is very little load for a steel beam. Generally you want to have a larger 'vertical' component to your beam section to minimize the bending moment. (general rule only). What that means is try to get the beam higher than wider for sure...ie: 2"x4" rather than 3" x 3". Hollow structural section (HSS) Tube is very strong stuff. If you throw a chain over this kind of section....you'd rock.
I too will try to get you some more info like 45auto....who sounds completely up on this kind of stuff.
(note: a couple...or three 2x12's would probably kick the pants out a lift that small).
Regardless...more to come.
BP

 

[QC]

Re: What size beam . . .

Re: What size beam . . .

Well I guess I wasn't clear enough, which is my MO, just ask Mrs. QC . . .

Yes, 9 ft' span, supports at each end only. I am actually thinking now of two 9' spans, but the question is the same. Worst case is 4.5 ft. on each side of the load, 1000 lbs max. My first thought on end support was joist hangers, but any ideas would be appreciated. "Beam" may have been the wrong word, but I was initially considering wood, steel would be fine, issues are cost and ease of installation. Supports are going into wood headers or studs. Height vs. width makes sense to me, I was considering an 8 x 4. 2 2x12s crossed my mind as well. Shorter gives me more height to work with. I have at least 12" vertical to work with on both sides for supports . . .

Thanks for the ideas so far

Edit: BTW, I am picture challenged right now as my ISP is having "issues", so my personal site is strugglin', and I am too lazy to take up photobucket again . . .

 

[JCF350]

Re: What size beam . . .

Re: What size beam . . .

I personally would not use any part of the house to carry any more weight than it was built for and make something like this free standing.

9 foot ceilings? not near enough vertical clearance.

Roll the boat in the slings? Will take more vertical clearance. Plus are you sure you have the right picture in your "minds eye" of how the hull is going move in the slings when you "roll it over"?

 

[QC]

Re: What size beam . . .

Re: What size beam . . .

I personally would not use any part of the house to carry any more weight than it was built for and make something like this free standing.

Well this is a good wake up comment. Too cautious? Correct?

9 foot ceilings? not near enough vertical clearance.

On the trailer this boat is only 4 ft. high at the deck, so I am not sure why I can get an engine and trans that are 24" tall up and over.

Roll the boat in the slings? Will take more vertical clearance.

Also, this boat's beam is only 6' 7" so I am still not clear why 9 ft. won't allow me to roll her over . . . Please elaborate.

Plus are you sure you have the right picture in your "minds eye" of how the hull is going move in the slings when you "roll it over"?

No, I am not sure. I am mostly concerned about what happens once she is 90 degrees sideways and starts the downhill run . . . I am not clear if there really is a downhill run though as it should remain somewhat balanced. If this is a stupid plan, I can abort and try something different. The hull as it sits now is roughly 800 lbs. doesn't seem like a runaway train to me at this point.

 

[tommays]

Re: What size beam . . .

Re: What size beam . . .

QC

A 3-1/4 W x 6 H x 1/4 web steel I beam will support that weight a 10' section is easy for 2 people to handle buy hand


We set them up all the time to pull gearboxs from mixers for service anything bigger gets to be a NIGHTMARE to rig as most of the places we hang them do not have forktruck acess


If it is at above 1000# we will pull it down in parts as the next size up is just to hard to handle


It is really hard to say with wood as there are so many different grades BUT the ENG floor trusses are 100 % the same


Tommays

 

[wildmaninal]

Re: What size beam . . .

Re: What size beam . . .

The I beam would personally be my second choice. my uncle has a nice move around hoist setup on I beams were he can move it left or right forward or backwards at his pole barn were he works on his heavy equipment. There's no telling what kind of weight has been hoisted with that setup he has. If you went with a 2x3 tubing I failed to mention that they have light stock (thin walled) or heavy stock (thick walled) so in your case use heavy stock. There has been as few hoist A frames made by nearly every uncle of mine for there own use, using 2x3 square, or round steel tubing, etc etc. Of course everything has there breaking or bending point, one uncle has bent his A frame to were it looks like an M. Don't know how in the world he did it.

 

[JCF350]

Re: What size beam . . .

Re: What size beam . . .

Well this is a good wake up comment. Too cautious? Correct?

Too cautious? Maybe, learned the hard way once.:redface:

On the trailer this boat is only 4 ft. high at the deck, so I am not sure why I can get an engine and trans that are 24" tall up and over.

Okay there's 6 feet, if using a "cherry picker" how much chain you gonna have between the engine and the hoist, you need enough to set the engine in place and still keep the boom off of the boat, if using an overhead frame how low is the tackle going to hang that will be attached to the engine?

Also, this boat's beam is only 6' 7" so I am still not clear why 9 ft. won't allow me to roll her over . . . Please elaborate.

How much lower are your beams and tackle going to hang from the ceiling? Seems kind of tight, still might be doable. I just prefer to have plenty room to work with I guess.

No, I am not sure. I am mostly concerned about what happens once she is 90 degrees sideways and starts the downhill run . . . I am not clear if there really is a downhill run though as it should remain somewhat balanced. If this is a stupid plan, I can abort and try something different. The hull as it sits now is roughly 800 lbs. doesn't seem like a runaway train to me at this point.

The down hill run is what I was thinking about. Maybe not a runaway train but a 800lb cow is awfull hard to stop.

 

[45Auto]

Re: What size beam . . .

Re: What size beam . . .

Hi QC,

Had a chance at lunch to look at your beam. I would load test anything you end up with before actually using it!

Looks like about any structural steel (A36 ? 36,000 psi yield stress) square tube (not thin-wall stuff ? the structural tube starts at 3/16 wall in my book) would work fine for you. The I-beam tables I have handy only go down to a 4 x 13 I-beam which would be massive overkill!

Smallest info I have is a 2 x 2 x 3/16 wall square tube. Max moment would be PL/4, 1000 * 9 / 4 = call it 2500 ft*lb. Max stress would be MY/I, 2500 * 1 / .688 = about 3700 psi. Deflection in the center would be PL^3/48EI, 1000 * 9^3 (^ means power, so 9^3 means 9 cubed) / (48 * 29000 * .688) = .76? so would be about ? of an inch.

If you want to do it with wood, the bending moment (M) is still the same, 2500 ft*lb. Section Modulus is used to size wood beams. SM required = Moment x 12 (to convert to inches) / Allowable wood stress. I used 1500 psi from this table for the max allowable wood stress:

http://www.southernpine.com/designvalues3.shtml

I know common lumber is machine evaluated and it shows 1550 psi on the lowest grade, so I figured 1500 just to be on the conservative side.

SM req = 2500 * 12 / 1500 = 20 in^3

Page 25 of this:

http://www.awc.org/pdf/WSDD/C1.pdf

has lumber Section Moduluses.

A 2 x 10 has a SM of 21.4, so that should theoretically work. SM of a 2 x 12 is 31.6.

If it was me, I would personally use a ? wall 3x3 if I could get the steel easily. It weighs about 9 lbs per foot. A 2x3 x 3/16 wall would also work as Wildmaninal said. A 3-1/4 W x 6 H x 1/4 web steel I beam as Tommays said is even better.

If you have to use wood I would glue and bolt a couple of 2 x 10?s or 2 x 12?s together (mount them with the long dimension vertical!). The cost of the material is negligible if you look at what it will cost you (assuming you don?t get hurt!) if you drop the motor!

You need to look at the mounts too. I have no idea what a joist hanger is good for.

 

[QC]

Re: What size beam . . .

Re: What size beam . . .

How much lower are your beams and tackle going to hang from the ceiling?

I agree this is an issue with both tasks, and I was already standing out there with a tape measure and adding together conservative factors. It is tight, and I won't do it unless I am sure of clearance.

Maybe not a runaway train but a 800lb cow is awfull hard to stop.

LOL I would definitely use a Cherry picker if I didn't also need to turn the boat over twice. It seems that if I can keep the straps (I imagine tow straps for example) pulled in against the boat when she is 90 degrees, and have some sort of braking system for the roller mechanisms, that this could be relatively cowless . . . Again, I will have it right, or I will do something else.

Here are some pics of a guy doing the engine task with a Cherry Picker. Looks like a fairly standard style. This boat's height and beam are the same dimensions as mine.

This guy, Mark Bronkalla (smiling), has put together a great site (and a great boat) for knuckleheads like me to learn from. The only thing I don't like about his is the windshield. Inappropriate for this boat if you ask me . . . Riviera Project

 

[QC]

Re: What size beam . . .

Re: What size beam . . .

Just found these pics of another guy's project . . .

Anybody know what those blue deals are on the ceiling? I think I can get a hold of this guy too, so at least I'll have some 'sperience guiding me . . .

 

[MikDee]

Re: What size beam . . .

Re: What size beam . . .

Being a retired pipefitter, many years ago I had a homemade pipe A-frame with 2" pipe legs, and a 3" pipe crossmember with a small chain block, or a chain comalong, that I used for pulling engines, & trannys, Shoot I could even lift the front, or rear end of a car off the ground with it, never phased the 10ft long 3" (schedule 40) pipe used for the crossmember, I would think you could use that as your lifting beam (In fact, I'm not sure if this is stronger then square tube steel, or not?).

 

[bassboy1]

Re: What size beam . . .

Re: What size beam . . .

Anybody know what those blue deals are on the ceiling?

Before I saw that post, I started pondering (like I always do) and thought about what the way to flip it would be. I concluded that some sort of pulley to fit on of those 27 or 35 foot 2 1/2 inch ratcheting straps.

Would ya look at what that guy had. Rollers hanging from his ceiling, and some of those ratcheting straps. He probably has a lot of structure in his roof - probably steel. Then, those are made from vertical flat stock, and the rollers are probably made of the wheels from some of the heavy duty all steel casters. That is a tarp, or plastic sheet on the roof, so he could spray in there.

 

[Bigprairie1]

Re: What size beam . . .

Re: What size beam . . .

QC
Personally I would never, ever use joist hangers for this application.
I have included a quick jpeg layout of something I would consider doing personally to combine the best of wood and steel.
This would keep my costs to a minimum and would allow me to frame up excellent, secure and robust end supports for the lifting load. It can be dismantled later...and moved for that matter to a different point in my shop and then resecured with several vertical lag bolts. Leaving the beam short of the top of the wood and the overhead inner roof or joists allows me rig a lifting chain or straps with minimal fuss.
This is my take on it and I personally would be completely comfortable doing this myself with confidence. I am not necessarily recommending that this is what you should do.
BP

 

[Bigprairie1]

Re: What size beam . . .

Re: What size beam . . .

...ok I'll try this again only with the attachment successfully (hopefully?)...well attached.
Here we go.