what do they do to rebuild a starter ...generally?

[bob johnson]

I need my starter rebuilt...it doesnt turn the motor fast enough to make spark..even with a fresh battery...

so i went to a local guy who just rebuilds automotive and marine starters and alternators....thats the guy..right??

I ask him to tell me how many rpms it is turning with out a load( a spec in the book to judge starters!!)

and he says.: i have no way of doing that?

I asked after...he went into the back to "TEST" my starter and I heard it turn over... and he comes back and says it sounds good...


soooo lets just say i left it with him anyway..and he REBUILT it.

would it turn as fast as originally made??

or is he REBUILDING another part of it..maybe like contacts, and bearings and bushings and brushes ect ect


whats makes a starter slow down??? what is wearing out??

thanks


bob

 

[1946Zephyr]

Re: what do they do to rebuild a starter ...generally?

I had a starter rebuilt for a guy a couple years back. It was for a 1962 Starflight 75hp. At $206 later. I had the windings replaced and all the bushings as well as the brushes. They also cleaned it up and made it look good. Any decent auto electric place should be able to do it.

 

[JB]

Re: what do they do to rebuild a starter ...generally?

"I need my starter rebuilt...it doesnt turn the motor fast enough to make spark..even with a fresh battery..."

What did you do to confirm that your trouble was in the starter, Bob? Three out of five starters that turn too slow are not bad, they have bad wiring supplying insufficient current. Those failures happen in the cables from the battery or in the connections to battery and engine (solenoid and engine block).

This problem is a plague in the spring after those connections sat all winter in changing temps and humidity. Take them all off, clean them and reassemble. Let us know what results.

As far as "rebuilding" starters, as little as replacing brushes and bushings and turning the commutator ring often passes as rebuilding. Rewinding the armature and/or the field windings (due to insulation failures) makes it a much bigger job, but even that should cost less than a new starter.

 

[Barnacle_Bill]

Re: what do they do to rebuild a starter ...generally?

What JB said plus a load test of the battery is always in order before a rebuild. Regardless of age.

 

[bob johnson]

Re: what do they do to rebuild a starter ...generally?

"I need my starter rebuilt...it doesnt turn the motor fast enough to make spark..even with a fresh battery..."

What did you do to confirm that your trouble was in the starter, Bob? Three out of five starters that turn too slow are not bad, they have bad wiring supplying insufficient current. Those failures happen in the cables from the battery or in the connections to battery and engine (solenoid and engine block).

This problem is a plague in the spring after those connections sat all winter in changing temps and humidity. Take them all off, clean them and reassemble. Let us know what results.

As far as "rebuilding" starters, as little as replacing brushes and bushings and turning the commutator ring often passes as rebuilding. Rewinding the armature and/or the field windings (due to insulation failures) makes it a much bigger job, but even that should cost less than a new starter.

I used my motor all winter!!!!!!! it was getting harder and harder to start....a few things were contributing factors, but the end result was a weak starter.
the battery was at various stages of charge and the temperatures were dropping really low....and the starter was turning just too slow.

last year all the same conditions, but the motor always started fast.

I bought a brand new marine battery... and the motor still wouldnt start..the connections at the battery were bolted with a wrench!! not wing nuts....

the other ends were never touched...

I wasnt getting spark!!! so I verified that the motor wasnt turning fast enough by removing the plugs, thus relieveing the back pressure from compression and I got spark!!!

the battery cables are only two years old and are HUGE.. even if they are a little long( about 12 feet) I think i used 1 or 2 guage tinned battery cable and sweated the terminals on the ends!!

I havent removed the starter yet....so i could do some voltage readins...if given some direction.... have a back up starter from another motor I am rebuilding, that i was going to install for now....and then rebuild the one coming out....of course the last time i cranked this replacement starter was in the summer....so i dont know its state really...

can i try and test for a no load current reading...like my manual has listed V4 12-12.4 volts amps =30 and minimum rpm should be 6500!!!

I think i can get a tach that reads from contact here at work....


bob

 

[Silvertip]

Re: what do they do to rebuild a starter ...generally?

Besides what JB said, anything dragging inside the engine (like a tight bearing) or a lower unit with a tight drive shaft bearing can slow a starter down. Before rebuilding or replacing a starter there are a number of tests and checks that need to happen. Step #1 is to pull the spark plugs and then turn the flywheel by hand. If the engine turns with a standard amount of force. Install the plugs again. If the engine turns hard then forget the starter and fix the mechanical problem. Back to the starter. Then connect a pair of jumper cables to a known good battery. Connect the other end of the NEG cable to the engine block. Touch the other end of the POS cable directly to the large connection on the starter. If you can't safely access that connection on the starter, touch the cable to the large post on the starter solenoid that connects to the starter. If the engine now spins freely you have electrical problems -- not a starter problem. If the engine doesn't spin normally the starter is in need of repair. Just like rebuilding an engine. The work that needs to be done depends on what is worn or broken. Worn bushings causes starter drag. Worn bushings can cause starter drag as well as tearing up the armature because it is striking the inside of the housing as it rotates. It may require a new bendix or it may not although any reputable shop would normally replace it anyway. Brushes that have worn to the point where they are eating away at the commutator can require a new armature or if you are lucky, trueing it up and undercutting the segments.
Shorted windings requires rewinding.

 

[ONERCBOATER]

Re: what do they do to rebuild a starter ...generally?

this is just my idea.. has worked before on mine.
disassemble starter, check out the brushes and springs.... just to make sure they are serviceable, then clean your commutator with 1000-1500 grit sandpaper.... then carefully clean the spaces between the commutator plates with a stiff nylon brush (i use an electric toothbrush) to clear carbon and copper deposits from between. then reassemble.

Sean

 

[ONERCBOATER]

Re: what do they do to rebuild a starter ...generally?

oh forgot..... try using jumper cables 1st on starter to know for sure it is a starter problem and not a bad connection.

Sean

 

[1946Zephyr]

Re: what do they do to rebuild a starter ...generally?

I used my motor all winter!!!!!!! it was getting harder and harder to start....a few things were contributing factors, but the end result was a weak starter.
the battery was at various stages of charge and the temperatures were dropping really low....and the starter was turning just too slow.

last year all the same conditions, but the motor always started fast.



Well, as Bob stated, he used the motor without any fail on the motor's behalf. If it's a V-4 or bigger, starters have a big job cranking those over. One thing you can do, is check for an excessively "burned" smell within the starter. That is one thing I noticed, when I had the one rebuilt a couple years ago. The electronics inside get hot and that will also help shorten the life of them. These kind of starters have a reduction gear, but it seems like they barely have enough "umph" to do the job. You could also take the starter in for a load test, before you go through the expense of having it rebuilt.

 

[bob johnson]

Re: what do they do to rebuild a starter ...generally?

Besides what JB said, anything dragging inside the engine (like a tight bearing) or a lower unit with a tight drive shaft bearing can slow a starter down. Before rebuilding or replacing a starter there are a number of tests and checks that need to happen. Step #1 is to pull the spark plugs and then turn the flywheel by hand. If the engine turns with a standard amount of force. Install the plugs again. If the engine turns hard then forget the starter and fix the mechanical problem. Back to the starter. Then connect a pair of jumper cables to a known good battery. Connect the other end of the NEG cable to the engine block. Touch the other end of the POS cable directly to the large connection on the starter. If you can't safely access that connection on the starter, touch the cable to the large post on the starter solenoid that connects to the starter. If the engine now spins freely you have electrical problems -- not a starter problem. If the engine doesn't spin normally the starter is in need of repair. Just like rebuilding an engine. The work that needs to be done depends on what is worn or broken. Worn bushings causes starter drag. Worn bushings can cause starter drag as well as tearing up the armature because it is striking the inside of the housing as it rotates. It may require a new bendix or it may not although any reputable shop would normally replace it anyway. Brushes that have worn to the point where they are eating away at the commutator can require a new armature or if you are lucky, trueing it up and undercutting the segments.
Shorted windings requires rewinding.

my starter cranks no problem....cranks and cranks.....all day long...but i DONT think it is FAST enough....

it has to crank a certain RPM to make spark!!

thats my problem and thats my inquiry...will a standard REBUILD address this slow rpm....or maybe its a torque issue...

I am worried they will just rebuild it with bearings and bushings and contacts...but it might not spin as fast as it should

bob

 

[wifisher]

Re: what do they do to rebuild a starter ...generally?

A "standard" rebuild will do nothing for the motor cranking RPM. There is really no way of saying what will be done. It is up to the individual doing the work. If the winding are functional, they will probably not be changed.
What people are saying, is that it is unlikely that your starter motor is the problem. It is more likely that you have an internal engine problem, or bad connection. If you do not believe this, go ahead and change the starter. Get a new one. The rebuilder says it sounds fine, so it probably will be no different when you get it back.

 

[bob johnson]

Re: what do they do to rebuild a starter ...generally?

A "standard" rebuild will do nothing for the motor cranking RPM. There is really no way of saying what will be done. It is up to the individual doing the work. If the winding are functional, they will probably not be changed.
What people are saying, is that it is unlikely that your starter motor is the problem. It is more likely that you have an internal engine problem, or bad connection. If you do not believe this, go ahead and change the starter. Get a new one. The rebuilder says it sounds fine, so it probably will be no different when you get it back.

i APPRECIATE THE INPUT. I was adamant that the starter was turning too slow based on a few things.......

FIRST after taking the motor to my mechanic who has been doing this for 40 years or so...and trying to get spark with all his fancy testers( me and his son..the old codger wasnt in then)

the son suggested the starter might not be turning fast enough....because we got intermitten spark for a while on one or two plugs..then we were getting none...and when we took the plugs out we got great spark in all for wires..

thge the old codger mechanic shows up and he tells me that if it doesnt turn fast enough.....the motor wont make spark

I didnt come up with this myself...!!!!

but later on I did read that exact message in the manual!!

it was cold that day... I had since recharged the battery to full and when it was a little warmer the motor barely started...

soooo. with a FULLY charged battery....and warmer temps the motor JUST started...took a while

all that was telling me I need to change the starter...I cant get a more powerfull or charged battery...I cant adjust the temperature!! i need the motor to start in bitter cold as well as warm( which it had been for a the previous year)

sdo under the advice I received i was looking at another starter.
a new starter
or rebuilding mine!!

but I have a spare starter!! that was working in the summer months on another similar motor.... I took THAT starter to the shop to get TESTED BEFORE I INSTALLED IT!!!

the guy wouldnt tell me the rpms it turned...he just told me it seemed to work fine...BUT I KNEW THAT..i took it off a running motor.

I wanted to get a feel for, if i was putting a time bomb in...that would lead me to the same issue very soon again...the motor is a 1997!!!

ie... let me rebuild the one in hand...so when i take the cowlings off..i can put the starter thats rebuilt right in and button the whole thing back up THAT DAY!! whew!!

there is a method to my madness!!!
I am...trying to be methodical....and pre emptive!!

BUT alas...I developed other issues to muddy the waters that last day i was using the motor( brand new battery and not as cold..and the motor did start)....the motor was shutting off onits own intermittenly...then finally it wouldnt start at all

but thats another THREAD to be opened!!thanks for all the advice on the starters guys


bob

but that last day

 

[geoffwga1]

Re: what do they do to rebuild a starter ...generally?

Bob,I am not familiar with your motor but someone has already stated that the starter is at the limit just to turn these fours over.My point is that all other things being in order,IE compression ,spark ,fuel,it should start after turning over only once.Is it not possible that your problem lies elsewhere.The first thing I would do is overhaul the carburettor.I know you said you had run it all winter but you also said it got progressively hard to start,Carburettors don't have to be sitting idle to get out of tune.Could be I'm peeing up wind but I'd give it a shot.
Geoffwga1

 

[bob johnson]

Re: what do they do to rebuild a starter ...generally?

yeah Geoff. no spark kinda puts the emphasis on electrical...for sure...

I do have carb issues.

leaky ones..and i am addresssing that..i have four fresh rebuilt carbs ready to go on when i change out the starter...but the not starting was totally related to the combo of cold, battery, & starter with the biggest issue being a weak starter..

I am now dealing with electrical test that arose sunsequent to my starter issues ...ON another thread

thanks again for the help

bob

 

[JB]

Re: what do they do to rebuild a starter ...generally?

"the other ends were never touched..."

Humor me, Bob. Probably 80% of the corrosion caused failures occur where the battery ground cable is bolted to the engine block. Those connections always look clean and are usually tight.

Here is why:

*It only requires 10 milli-ohms of resistance to seriously affect starter motor torque and drop voltage available to the powerpak..

*That connection is the only one in the outboard where a tinned copper terminal is bolted to an aluminum alloy block with a steel stud and nut. That is three dissimilar metal junctions expanding and contracting at different rates every time the temp changes. It is a miracle that they don't fail every winter.

Take it (and all of the other big wire connections) off and scrub them shiny at least once a year. It will cost you ZIP and may save a fishing trip.

It could have saved hundreds of boaters unnecessary rebuilds and replacements of starters and solenoids.

 

[metriccrescentwrench]

Re: what do they do to rebuild a starter ...generally?

Bob, if you feel like playing with a multi-meter here's how you can test all the connections between battery and starter (I'm getting the allowable numbers from my 1990 Johnson 200 factory manual, but these values should be in the ballpark for any engine). I'd check this before ever replacing either a starter or solenoid.


1. Measure the voltage from + battery terminal to the + connection on solenoid while someone cranks the engine, this voltage drop should be less than 0.3 volts.

2. Measure the voltage between the two large solenoid terminals while someone cranks the engine, voltage drop should be less than 0.2 volts.

3. Measure voltage between the large solenoid post which goes to the starter, and the positive post on the starter while someone cranks the engine, voltage drop should be less than 0.2 volts.

4. Measure voltage between the negative battery post and a powerhead grounding post while someone cranks the engine. This voltage drop should be less than 0.3 volts.

If any of those measurements are high you've found the problem.

 

[bob johnson]

Re: what do they do to rebuild a starter ...generally?

ok I have my tasks for tomorrow....it will be a mess, because I am trying to troubleshoot the stop circuit switch and or key switch now too...

the one issue now about the starter is, that its warm... so I dont think the starter would even give me a problem now...( actually I know the motor makes spark now!!! I got spark when i pulled the stop circuit packard connector off the power pack!)

but ill test as suggested..and when i take the lower cowling off this weekend to replace my carbs...Ill go ahead and clean and retorque the starter wire and battery wires..

I use the boat almost exclusively in colder temps and mostly in salt water..

I have grease cover on most connections!!

id love for easy loose bolt problems to be found!!

got my Gf coming back over to be the extra hand to turn the key

bob

 

[bob johnson]

Re: what do they do to rebuild a starter ...generally?

I got my other issues fixed and the motor starts fine..now but i suspect the starter is still weak for winter time use...'

but ill wait till warmer days to replace it... I charged the battery... and wth the connections at the battery the same I got 12.86 volts

The connection at the ground on the starter looked good...all greased over...but I removed it anyway per JB suggestion...got some sand paper and sanded the aluminum, and the copper connector on the battery cable. I cleaned it all up and applied some new grease and reinstalled.

just to see if my length of cables is giving me a voltage drop, i checked the voltage at the motor 12.83 volt...dropped .03 volts

didnt check while cranking though ..i was alone


bob

 

[tomynoks]

Re: what do they do to rebuild a starter ...generally?

Bob, I'm having similar issues... what issues did you take care of that got the motor started? Mine sat for 2 years, went through and cleaned all connections etc... but starter seems to not have enough torque... I know that it may not be the starter... but this is blowing my mind.. I bought a new batterycharged it and same thing.. then I took the battery out of my Jeep and tried that.. same thing.. took the starter apart, cleaned the brushes and commutator, all looked good...same result.. I will clean-up the neg ground again next and try that.. but what else did you do??

 

[bob johnson]

Re: what do they do to rebuild a starter ...generally?

Tomy, my issue was a little different than yours..my motor always started fine when it was warm and the previous year even when it was cold...the change was slow and resulted in a motor not starting one really cold day..it was a combination of a weak battery and a weak starter. The starter starts fine right now in weather over 15 degrees!!!

for your issue, you could have mechanical interferance!! ie...rust on internal parts...crank...rings ect...as well as poor connections along the line.

many years ago I couldnt get a good starting power out of my jeeps battery even brand new....found that the battery line INSIDE the sheathing was corroded...no way could i see it...

I susopected it and cut it open to find the bad spots....no juie was getting through.

id test your set up with an alternate battery supply line...as a check...dont use cheap skimpy cables to check...use heavy duty battery cable run it across the floor...and see if that helps. id also squirt some pnetrating oil in the cylinders .


good luck


bob