Water inversion questions...Vinny?

John Carpenter

Petty Officer 1st Class
Joined
Nov 1, 2002
Messages
336
Not sure I understand this problem/condition...at least as it relates to the set-up I have in an older Chris Craft. This boat has the cast iron water mufflers which have a built in trap that..I think...prevents water from flowing towards the engine. Is this correct? Is it possible for water to enter the engine from the exhaust with this set-up? Thanks in advance.
 

coupedeville

Petty Officer 2nd Class
Joined
Sep 17, 2002
Messages
164
Re: Water inversion questions...Vinny?

I'll beat Vinney to the punch on this one. :p <br />There is a measurement called a "static line". What it means is the relation of the water level in the riser's of your exhaust system to the level of the waterline of your boat. If your boat sits too low, or the height of the risers is too short, then the difference between the water you're floating on and the water level in your exhausts is going to be very small. In other words, water could flow back through the exhaust, and into your engine.<br />Vinney likes to also point the finger at engines using roller camshafts, but I've not been able to find any data to back that up. However it is widely recognized that engines that use a camshaft with large amounts of duration and overlap, can cause a reversion condition that can also cause water to be pulled back into the cylinders.<br /><br />I'm sure that Vinney will post here soon, telling me that I don't know squat about roller cams and static lines, and that he's an engineer and he works on boats as a profession, and we're all ignorant, etc., etc., etc.. ;) He may be right on a lot of subjects, but he has a way of phrasing things that is a bit abrasive and patronizing.
 

Beaux

Petty Officer 1st Class
Joined
Oct 30, 2002
Messages
390
Re: Water inversion questions...Vinny?

easy there coup...i agree but yours must have a hair trigger.... LOL... Live in a glass house? I'm just kidding! ;) <br />
2gunsfiring_v1.gif
<br /><br />relentless, you may want to retitle to something about manifold water trap/water in engine. That reversion term,although correct, may not get the attention of person you want. Probably thinks it is just bait again....has been a HOT topic lately. Just my .02, sorry i couldnt help.. Good Luck
 

coupedeville

Petty Officer 2nd Class
Joined
Sep 17, 2002
Messages
164
Re: Water inversion questions...Vinny?

Me, hair trigger? Ha! I'm one of the hardest person's to rile I've ever met. <br />I'm not trying to start anything with anybody, that's not the purpose of these forum's. My comment about Vinney was merely a pre-emptive move, I'm sure we'll be hearing from him.<br /><br />If you think I'm exagerating, then go to the post "Mercruiser 6.2 info" and see the replies to "flashback".<br /><br />p.s. I actually live in a concrete apartment building. ;)
 

denniz

Senior Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Aug 21, 2002
Messages
743
Re: Water inversion questions...Vinny?

Make sure your exhaust shutters are in place and not stuck open or burned out.
 

denniz

Senior Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Aug 21, 2002
Messages
743
Re: Water inversion questions...Vinny?

That would cause water injestion...(inversion????...???)
 

John Carpenter

Petty Officer 1st Class
Joined
Nov 1, 2002
Messages
336
Re: Water inversion questions...Vinny?

Coupedeville...thanks for the link, I'll check it out. I have a 23 Monterey with a 350 Mercruiser & I think I understand the whole issue of static lines and water possibly entering the engine via the exhaust...whatever term you may use to describe it. What I was asking at the beginning of this thread...& I should have been clearer in my terminology...does it make any DIFFERENCE with the set-up I have in the other boat...a straight inboard 28' Chris Craft equipped with water lift mufflers. Do the mufflers effectively prevent water from making it's way back to the engine? This set-up is NOT similar to a standard MerCruiser exhaust...there are no mechanical parts to fail. BTW, I have been in sales for over 20 years so my skin is as thick as any. My father was an engineer as were most of his friends...been around them all my life & have actually known a few who could actually get something done ;)
 

P.V.

Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Mar 14, 2002
Messages
452
Re: Water inversion questions...Vinny?

Ok, I'm sure that you will correct me BUT... some are talking about water from the lake backing into the engine.That's what flappers hope to solve.(and a good static water line) Others are talking about water that has "just" exited the exhust manifolds and due to , as an example, cam shaft profile/overlap OR an "out-of-tune" engine that runs backwards slightly on shut-down. The water entry occurs right where the water merges with the exhust at the elbows. Reversion! It's more likely to occur on a hot day due to dieseling.... but if the motor is timed wrong or just in need of a good tune-up, it could run backwards for a moment and suck "back" that exiting exhust water. The further away the exhust elbows are, or the higher the elbows, or the more angle.... the better! Ok, now, be gentle with me !!!
 

denniz

Senior Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Aug 21, 2002
Messages
743
Re: Water inversion questions...Vinny?

Youre totally right PV,the difference is Is the water getting sucked back into the motor or is it caused by backwash (shutters) or risers being too close or below the water line. It makes a big difference Id find a competent mechanic to SHOW you the problem, Id hate to change a cam and find out its not the problem.
 

coupedeville

Petty Officer 2nd Class
Joined
Sep 17, 2002
Messages
164
Re: Water inversion questions...Vinny?

As I understand it, we are talking about two separate, but related things.<br />With any kind of wet exhaust, reversion is a possibility. It can be brought on by having a big cam, lots of duration and lots of overlap, or by something like a burnt exhaust valve. Anything that could allow the exhaust to be subjected to the vacuum incurred as the piston, having finished its upward exhaust stroke, now starts moving down on the intake stroke. If the exhaust valve is open on the intake stroke [overlap or other fault], then exhaust will also be pulled back into the cylinder. And, since there's water being injected into the exhaust, it'll be pulled in too. It really is only a problem at high vacuum conditions, such as at idle, or when you back off the throttle at speed.<br />A friend of mine who owns a garage told me about the dollar bill test. On a 4 cylinder car, if it has a burnt exhaust valve, or a similar problem, you can hold a dollar bill against the exhaust pipe at idle, and it will actually pulsate in and out. Taller risers, or injecting the water farther away from the engine can help reduce the possibility of reversion. Shutters/flappers wont help for this.<br />As near as I can tell, your static line depends on how low your boat sits in the water. Even tied up at the dock, if you put enough weight in the stern of the boat, the water level is going to rise higher and higher in the exhaust system, even to the point of water spilling over the top of the risers and literally flooding into the engine. This is where shutters/flappers should help.<br />Relentless, I am not familiar with your setup, so I couldn't honestly offer an opinion. It seems to be more of a problem with newer boats, judging by the posts.
 

coupedeville

Petty Officer 2nd Class
Joined
Sep 17, 2002
Messages
164
Re: Water inversion questions...Vinny?

They say a picture is worth a thousand words, so here goes;<br />
<br /><br />The static line is the distance between the waterline and the top of the elbows. Bigger is better, as far as water ingestion goes. If your boat is too low, that distance is very short. Taller risers increase the distance [duh].<br />This is not the same thing as reversion caused by a big camshaft.
 

flashback

Captain
Joined
Jun 28, 2002
Messages
3,964
Re: Water inversion questions...Vinny?

Yea Coupe, he did maul me a little, but look at the time of his post. somewhere around 4:30 in the am...probably had ingested a bottle of firewater and was feeling bullet proof.. judging by the somewhat staggering sentence stucture and spelling......oh well, live and let live......
 

coupedeville

Petty Officer 2nd Class
Joined
Sep 17, 2002
Messages
164
Re: Water inversion questions...Vinny?

Mmmm. Perhaps. In my book, there's no excuse for rudeness. These forum's are set up for people to ask and answer boating questions, not to put other people down. We may not all be experts, but we deserve a little common courtesy. Nobody likes being "flamed". <br />I attribute the somewhat fractured grammar to the probability that English is not his mother tongue.<br />Being unilingual myself, I don't mock others for their shortcomings with the language. English is not an easy language to learn, and the written form is, of course, more difficult to master than the oral form.
 

jlshields

Petty Officer 1st Class
Joined
Aug 31, 2002
Messages
257
Re: Water inversion questions...Vinny?

Coupe, Mercruiser manual says static line is the distance from the water line with the boat fully loaded to the TOP of the ELBOW, not bottom of riser. Their measure is 13 in. minimum. VPs may be different. Also are boaters here confusing elbows and risers? The riser is the spacer between the manifold and the exhaust elbow that is used to increase the static measure. John
 
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