Verado Find

Jason S in WA · Feb 17, 2005

Has anynody else seen or heard this? I for one am extremely interested in this. I have a 200 Yammi HDPI on oder but that 175 Verado looks mighty nice. Thing I like is with the four stroke technology it is only a matter of time till reliable hot rodding becomes available to OB motor owners. Look at the rage now a days for sport compacts you can not tell me that the Honda tech will not transfer over to the VTEC OB motors. There is a lot of CARB legal stuff out there for all brands of motors now. Heck Edlebrock is even making sport compact stuff which is CRAB legal. Just think a new set of cams, nice three angle valve job (tad larger valves) with complimentry porting, impoved exhaust tubes with some ports/muffs to exit above water for reduced back pressure and a nice computer tune to raise the boost a tad (as it says computer controlled). Throw in some displacement through a little bore and stroke, some low deck forged pistoms with an increase in compression ratio and I bet I could get that 175 over 250HP with a motor at 510 pounds. Man I am drooling over the four stroke OB possibilities. Merc will probably be the first with the Merc Racing division, but Yamaha probably won't be far behind as they are taking a lot of stuff from thier motorcycle technology. Imagine a 10000 RPM motor that idles great with a low (3.3 or so :1 gear ratio) to scream on the top.

Jason S in WA · Feb 17, 2005

Re: Verado Find

Just waiting to see it on the web site. I am calling about this tomorrow. My boat build slot is not for another couple months so I have some time.

jim dozier · Feb 18, 2005

Re: Verado Find

Jason, don't hold your breath for the performance goodies. The reason I can buy and do all those things you mentioned for my Acura Integra GSR auto is that they make so many of them and so many of the owners want to twidle with them. There is a sufficiently large market for a lot of small companies to make go fast doodads. There aren't enough outboards of one particular size and owners willing to do that to make a big enough market in my opinion. Still it would be fun. If the Verado does well I expect to see a Jackson Racing blower on a Honda outboard soon.

kd6nem · Feb 18, 2005

Re: Verado Find

Isn't the Verado already tweaked out to the max, or darn near anyway? It has been said you can have any two of these three: afforable, long lasting, or extreme performance, but you can never have all three at once. I will say that present motors come closer than ever before in living up to all three, but they are still more than a bit expensive for me. No, these machines are already so highly tuned that I do not expect anyone to be able to work any great additional magic in terms of performance without requiring an overhaul after each weekend just like those who are all out modified racers. And the above water exhaust would be noisy as all get out. I wouldn't want that running anywhere near me. Furthermore, isn't there a significant scavenging effect from the negative pressure zone the exhaust is delivered into once the boat is moving anyway? My cent and a half worth.... It may be that I'm all wet, just how it seems to me. I'd like to hear what those who are better informed than I have to say.

lark2004 · Feb 18, 2005

Re: Verado Find

I just love the way people seem to thin that they can improve on todays engines. The Verado has been developed by a team of engineers, who built and tested some 200 proto type engines. The entire engine has been developed with computers to ensure the optimum shape, size, etc... of all ports, passage ways, you name it. How can you possibly make it go better? I suppose you probably think you could improve on a topfuel drag motor? I suppose you may think you can improve perfomance, but i bet you will shoot your fuel economy, your emissions will go off the chart, and the whole thing will probably self destuct within a year. I can understand that were signifacant gains to be made by tweaking the older engines, but todays engines? Do some real research.

Jason S in WA · Feb 18, 2005

Re: Verado Find

Originally posted by lark2004: I just love the way people seem to thin that they can improve on todays engines. The Verado has been developed by a team of engineers, who built and tested some 200 proto type engines. The entire engine has been developed with computers to ensure the optimum shape, size, etc... of all ports, passage ways, you name it. How can you possibly make it go better? I suppose you probably think you could improve on a topfuel drag motor? I suppose you may think you can improve perfomance, but i bet you will shoot your fuel economy, your emissions will go off the chart, and the whole thing will probably self destuct within a year. I can understand that were signifacant gains to be made by tweaking the older engines, but todays engines? Do some real research.

Well see as how I am in the manufacturing mechanical engineering field I have done significantly more real research than you could possibly imagine including failure anaylsis. Care to compare degree's? Anyhow in 1990 the technology to make a 302 was 225 HP. I have one with 400 rear wheel HP naturally asperated I live with everyday for my drive to work. 1990 Diesels were pushing 215HP with 400ft/lbs torque, today real word number with same if not better reliability 325HP / 600ft/lbs. Always room for tweaking. All too often manufacturing is dumbed down to the lowest common denominator of consumer and warrenties rule. Throttle by wire for reduced drive train wear is a classic example. Give me one of those Verados with access to the code for the software and I assure you it can be made stronger with the same reliability. My last built 302 lasted 156K before I tore it down for a rebuild. That was with nothing more than routine maintenence. Look at the "new" Chevy small blocks and the power they are pushing with the life expectancies they have. How many factory supercharged turbocharged vehicals are there now. Suburu with a 300HO 4 banger.

rodbolt · Feb 18, 2005

Re: Verado Find

jasonJ I wont compare degrees but I will compare actual experience. that coupled with almost 7 years of technical schools. my dad was the one with the degrees not me. we have had 302 cid with 225 HP in boats since the 80's. in fact sometime in the 30's and ENGINEER with a degree declared that drag racers could not break the 120 MPH mark on land. he proved it mathematically. with a 400 HP at the rear wheels your not in compliance with current emissions laws. I have built to many 650 HP 5.7s and 800+ HP bigblocks. its what I used to do when working with some NHRA and IHRA shops. as you increase HP reliability decreases. on your 156K motor, how many miles were at full throttle full load? my 455 in my old w30 carhas close to 150 K and is about 550 HP. with the right tires it will turn high 11 and low 12's all day long. as metal and casting technologies have improved so did engine output and reliability. the formula 1 circuit ususe 600 HP 1.9 litre engines. but they dont last long. I have seen 300 HP 2.3L pinto motors. there again longevity is a problem. looking at the F225 yam I can see 6oo HP with no real block/crank mods. an internal combustion engine is an air pump. more air can burn more fuel,its just a matter of getting in into and out of the cyl. but at 600 HPat fullload and full throttle the longevity would be suspect. I dont think the gear case is strong enough. and wet exhasut would be out of the question and the cost of the package would most likly be in the 30K range. same as the roundy rounders. the more HPand the longer the race to faster the engines fail. look at any nascar team. the only ones that win are theones with unlimited engine and drive train spares. big daddy and shirley came to the track with 2 complete spare engines and enogh parts to build a third. but in a boat its all about reliabilty at or near full throttle full load. I did a service on a wild mans boat. its a 30 grady marlin with a pair of F225 yams, the ECU has recorded just over 800 hours. 30 hours above 6000 RPM and 325 hours above 5000 RPM. thats the kind of reliability that is required. I cant think of many 400 HP small blocks that could match it. lkark2004 could we make it go faster? yep. with access to the ECU mapping no worries. could we do it and INCREASE engine reliability? maybe not

.

seahorse5 · Feb 19, 2005

Re: Verado Find

Hey Rodbolt, I wonder how many of the readers know who Big Daddy, Shirley, and Cha Cha are? You just brought back a lot of memories, my friend.

rabidfish · Feb 19, 2005

Re: Verado Find

I'll compare degrees... Unless you spent 6-8 years with Gordon Blair at QUB... It's simple physics. Ask the same parts to do more work, and they will wear/break faster. If you really have an education, you know this. Even Mercury knows that their 275 won't last as long as the 200! The only difference is the mapping! Comparing a single engine (that you built, operated, and maintained) to thousands of engines in service all over the world is ridiculous. Did you do an actual study? What did you use for control? How many test subjects did you use? Email me your data! When do you release your new engines to the public? Since "black" and "white" are taken, I suppose you'll paint yours pink! Toss around your degree like you have actually accomplished something. Shame!

kd6nem · Feb 19, 2005

Re: Verado Find

Anyway car horsepower and boat/aircraft/tractor/stationary engine horsepower is apples and oranges. What car ever runs its entire life at more than 25% of rated power? Car engines cannot run constantly at full peak power and make it to half their expected lifespan. Car horsepower is peak hp, other useages are rated differently. I have no engineering degree. And I believe that you could indeed get more HP from a Verado. But I stand by my earlier statement, "you can have any two of these three: afforable, long lasting, or extreme performance, but you can never have all three at once." And even I realize that while further improvements will continue to happen, it is not likely that there will be many more quantum leaps in efficiency. There will be a number of smaller improvements, but thermodynamics is thermodynamics. There will never be a cheap 800 hp outboard which can easily be worked on or which will have great longevity so long as you expect it to be the size & weight of or consume the fuel of a 100 hp outboard. Improvements, yes; miracles, no. The days of easy, quick, and inexpensive major improvements in engines are past. That ground has already been covered. Further improvements will take more effort than ever before.

Mettaree · Feb 19, 2005

Re: Verado Find

Aren't Shirley and Cha Cha one and the same person. I may be having a Senior Moment. Jim

tommays · Feb 19, 2005

Re: Verado Find

LMAO one man with a degree is going to out think the house that Kiekhaefer built, what could they no after all those world championships tommays

Trophy23 · Feb 20, 2005

Re: Verado Find

To Jason I say keep on thinking about inovation. To the 'sour grapes', I say "Nuts". If it wasn't for a little imagination and research we wouldn't have motors like the Verado or Etec. I'm 54 yrs old and I say they CAN be made better and faster if we try. Maybe Merc needs Jason to show em how. Why not, they got there research manager, Claus Bruestle, from Porche and he didn't think inside the box. I have been told they have had the Verado over 350 already. Probably will keep hp down for reliability as said by rodbolt and others. But hey, if ya want more hp it won't stop ya from tryin. and look what all we've learned over the years. Ya really think we know everything yet??? I sure as he__ don't think so. So to the young guys I say keep thinking up new ideas, ya can tell some of us old people are stuck thinking inside a box and forgot what it is to try something new or try to make a super charger work better or a carb/manifold increase hp on our ole chevy's or fords. I know ya all are going to walk on me and bad mouth me like ya have in the past, but to you I say "aren't you the same people who change reed valves and etc to boost hp on your two strokes, etc". Give him a break then.

LubeDude · Feb 21, 2005

Re: Verado Find

Originally posted by seahorse: Hey Rodbolt, I wonder how many of the readers know who Big Daddy, Shirley, and Cha Cha are? You just brought back a lot of memories, my friend.

Ido, Ido.

LubeDude · Feb 21, 2005

Re: Verado Find

Im not going to get very technical here, but these engines are always tuned down for reliability. Some could care less about reliability to a point, being "BAD" is what its about for some. I think there would be a lot of power able to be released with just balancing, porting, valve work and strengthening of some week parts, money involved, yes. Timeinvolved, of course. But that is what hot rodding has allways been. Will reliability drop off, of coaurse, but it doesnt have to catistroffic. There is deffinatly room for improvement. Many of us are happy with just 10,20,30% incrases. How is the drive to the blower actually driven? Just a change in pullys, or gears can change the boost. The computer is a great place to start as already mentioned. Being a boat, Propping will be a problem, as lowend torque will suffer and the holeshot will be a major problem.

kenimpzoom · Feb 21, 2005

Re: Verado Find

Every thing mass produced is a compromise. Cost vs performance/reliability. Add stronger parts, you can get better performance & reliability. The Verado is an unknown, perhaps they are running on the ragged edge. If so, they will be the first mass produced engine to ever do that. Ken

rabidfish · Feb 21, 2005

Re: Verado Find

Nobody here is stating that Verado is putting out the most it can. If you read the posts... you will read that it's available from 200 to 275 hp with the only difference being ECM mapping. Surely mapping could be changed to increase output, of that there is no doubt. Turning the blower faster will make absolutely no difference, as the relief pressure is controlled by the ECM also. What is being debated is whether or not you can increase output and not sacrifice durability. Again, this is simple physics. It's the same reason that if you don't run WOT they all last longer. Industry studies indicate that backing off by 25% can increase longevity by as much as 50%. Can this engine be modified to make more power? Certainly! ( not legally, in the US. (EPA regs)) Can it be done without sacrificing durability? Yes, but not without considerable expense.

seahorse5 · Feb 22, 2005

Re: Verado Find

Originally posted by JKW1939: Aren't Shirley and Cha Cha one and the same person. I may be having a Senior Moment. Jim

Unless I'm having a senior moment, back in the '60's there were Shirley Muldowny and Cha Cha Rodriguez on the drag race circuit. 40 years of time, 2-stoke outboard fumes, booze, and pharmacuticals may have have taken their toll, though.

Mettaree · Feb 22, 2005

Re: Verado Find

I did have a Senior Moment - I had forgotten about Cha Cha Rodriguez all I could remember was Shirley " Cha-Cha " Muldowny. I was in the Air Force then and think I may have gotten too much JP4 fumes and too much time at 30 - 40,000 ft. Thanks for the wake up.

walleyehed · Feb 22, 2005

Re: Verado Find

Industry studies indicate that backing off by 25% can increase longevity by as much as 50%.

this is ONLY TRUE IF PROP WILL ALLOW MAX RPM-TOP OF RANGE OR HIGHER ....at WOT

Verado Find

Cadet

Cadet

Lieutenant Commander

Chief Petty Officer

Lieutenant Junior Grade

Cadet

Supreme Mariner

Rear Admiral

Senior Chief Petty Officer

Chief Petty Officer

Petty Officer 1st Class

Admiral

Seaman

Admiral

Admiral

Rear Admiral

Senior Chief Petty Officer

Rear Admiral

Petty Officer 1st Class

Admiral