Used boats - no title = beware

[bonz_d]

This is kind of a word of warning to newbie boat purchasers that don't know their way around yet.

I recently came across an add posted on craigslist for a nice looking project boat that to many new buyers would look like a nice fair price. W/o going into details the boat would be well worth the asking price with the acception that the seller does not have a title or any legal paperwork for the boat.

I have seen this one before and know a little history, as in the seller is not the rightfull owner. It was left behind and the seller is now trying to recoup some lost money. Again the problem is that the seller is not the legal owner and trying to obtain a new title in this case will be next to impossible! So even after some one buys this from this seller the legal owner has every right to come back claim and take possesion of this boat.

I actually was in contact with this seller when I first came across this add because I was interested at the price until I discovered all the facts about the title. The seller pretty much stated that they didn't care and that the title was the buyers problem, he has possion now and just wants the money!

So buyers beware and when you come across a boat w/o any paperwork don't just walk away RUN! I just hope and pray some one doesn't really get burned on this one!

 

[sickwilly]

Re: Used boats - no title = beware

"So buyers beware and when you come across a boat w/o any paperwork don't just walk away RUN! I just hope and pray some one doesn't really get burned on this one! "

Probably true on the situation you described, but not a true generalization to every state. In TN there are no boat titles, all you need is notarized bill of sale. If I were to sell you my boat, all I would have is the original boat show sale to the first owner, a notarized bill of sale from him to me, and the fact that I have had it continuously registered in this state. I have no title, though.

 

[bonz_d]

Re: Used boats - no title = beware

The boat in this case is in a state that requires titles and also has registration numbers from that same state. Here in Wisconsin boats under 16' are not required to be titled either but are required to be registered if powered and that registration card is required to change ownership and have it reregistered by the new owner. So the registration card acts as a title in Wisconsin for boat 16' and under. I also understand that there are states with much stricter requirements than the state that this boat is in.

If you're in a state that doesn't require any paperwork then I guess you're good to go! But if you are then you'd better have something!

 

[akorcovelos]

Re: Used boats - no title = beware

I saw that boat listed on the mil CL. heck of a deal if the title could be sorted out. If what the seller says is true he could get a title since the boat was basically abandoned on his property. Lits of red tape and tine to get it in his name before he could sell it though. Only other option would be to contact the actual owner and get the title from him.

 

[bonz_d]

Re: Used boats - no title = beware

And what do you think the chances are of the original owner giving up the title? If that was the case they would have given it up to the seller don't you think? And that is also if the original owner still has possesion of the original title after all this time. Sure the last legal owner could apply for a lost title and receive it but again once they have it what make anyone think that they would just give it up for free?

Though it can be done and sorted out it's still a lot of time and expsense and this boat isn't worth all that. Again, sure it would be worth the price with clear paperwork. And yes they could get a title through the courts but they refuse to and they are the only ones with legal recourse. The next buyer has none.

 

[tpenfield]

Re: Used boats - no title = beware

Buying a boat is a fairly complicated process that takes a while to learn and master. Lack of clear title to the boat is probably in the top 5 issues that are seen here on the iBoats forum, along with 'it ran great on the ear muffs' and 'tell me how to fix this OMC King Cobra' and 'it has a few soft spots on the floor' . . .

Newbie boater's will probably continue to fall into these 'traps', but hopefully they will come across this post and similar posts, and think about asking the right questions, etc. during the purchasing process.

 

[bgc]

Re: Used boats - no title = beware

Here in Ohio its nearly impossible to get a title.

 

[bonz_d]

Re: Used boats - no title = beware

Newbie boater's will probably continue to fall into these 'traps', but hopefully they will come across this post and similar posts, and think about asking the right questions, etc. during the purchasing process.

Absolutely correct. And part of it is that being new to it they just don't know the questions to ask. It's not that thay are not asking question they just are not asking the right ones, again because they just haven't learned yet. Information and knowledge are powerful tools.

In this case I think the seller has a careless attitude and is putting buyers at great risk. At this point how could some one offer to sell something that at this point is not even legally theirs to sell. There is clearly a property dispute here.

 

[bonz_d]

Re: Used boats - no title = beware

Here in Ohio its nearly impossible to get a title.

How do you mean? To get a lost or replacement or that Ohio just does not issue them for boats at all?

 

[Tagerman]

Re: Used boats - no title = beware

In Tennessee there are no boat titles and it is very very easy to transfer ownership with no legal paperwork. There is one form I forget the name that keeps the boat from being sold out from under a lien holder but other than that as long as you have a bill of sale there is nothing else to do. Also if someone else has already paid for the registration (I pay for mine in 3 year increments) you are free to boat on their registration until it expires and then get your own. It's actually easier to do so more hoops to jump through to register an already registered boat. So nice to live in a state that doesn't care.

Edit: you can pay a fee and get a title issued in Tennessee but almost nobody does that. My boat has been in this state at the same marina since 1990 and has never had a title.

 

[bonz_d]

Re: Used boats - no title = beware

Tagerman, then what do you need to do if you buy a boat with expired registration or no registration at all? Still Just a noterized BOS?

In Wisconsin the registration is also 3 year and it is not transferable. If the boat is sold then the new owner is required ro registar it under their name. Liablity issues! And at that I would insist for myself. Ran into that with a car I sold once. Buyer never tranfered title and then abondoned it in Chicago. Guess what the city of Chicago came after me as the last know owner.

 

[catfishcarl99]

Re: Used boats - no title = beware

i live in il. as soon as something doesnt have a title that ends my intrest. i went through it on a car. the owner lost it yet never had never transfered it to himself. i had to go to origional owner and get him to sign me over power of attourney papers and then transfer. if i hadnt known orig owner since i live in a small town i would have had to try and run the vin and search him out. i got lucky. never again.

 

[Tagerman]

Re: Used boats - no title = beware

Tagerman, then what do you need to do if you buy a boat with expired registration or no registration at all? Still Just a noterized BOS?

My bill of sale isn't even notarized it's just witnessed and I had no problems getting the boat registered so even getting it notarized is going further than the state wants. The boat I just bought hasn't been registered in two years because the owner fell in poor health and just had it winterized and dry stored. The tag and title office gives you a form saying you legally own the boat and you mail a copy of that to TWRA (Tennessee Wildlife) who is in charge of boat registrations. A week or two later you have your sticker and your numbers.

 

[louiefl]

Re: Used boats - no title = beware

When I bought my boat from a private seller the transaction was at the local Florida tag and title office. He didn't have the title but for a few bucks they would issue a replacement on the spot. He signed it over and I transferred into my name, signed a bill of sale and handed over the check.

Laws vary from state to state, here in Florida you only pay sales tax on the value of the boat (you can deduct motor value) and trailer. Boats and trailers have specific rules based on size if they have a title or not. There is also specific language required to make a bill of sale valid and wether it needs to be notarized.

Best bet for any potential buyer is to call their local tag office and find out what specific items they need. Even better is to conduct the transaction there too.

 

[CoffeeHound]

Re: Used boats - no title = beware

After buying 3 boats in Texas:
1. Untitled and never made it home with it -- Think the term used by the officer was Grand Theft Boat
He did not make to the bank, so I did get my check back. Cost me near $30.oo in fuel with the big truck tho.

2. Third party paper work and almost a month wait for the original owner to get everything updated.
It was a cheep glassie that looked good from the outside. Settin in the yard with 4-Sail sign. BTW W/papers !!

3. Bought last boat from owner, with all papers in his name w/ both blue & green sheet attached and
was in and out of TPW in 15 min. ,, title and registation in my hands. Boat of my dreams is now
parked in the driveway !! Legal Beaggle too.

 

[s freud]

Re: Used boats - no title = beware

Timely thread as I am looking to pick up a trailer Saturday without a title. I have called DMV twice about what it will take to get it titled, requirements, printed forms etc. No one likes the DMV, but they can be handy sometimes. Any questions you all might suggest for me? I plan to see that the VIN number is there, ask what happened to the title, if they never had it why not, how much they used the trailer (you have to have a title for a trailer on the road in VA), if they ever got stopped, how long they have owned, etc. I need all that for the DMV form anyway. It's an 18 foot trailer with rollers that I plan to modify for my 14' jon boat. -In unrelated news, anyone want to buy some rollers? j/k.

 

[bonz_d]

Re: Used boats - no title = beware

So folks there you have it. Across the spectrum the law and requirements vary greatly from state to state. Some very lenient and some strict which also require the titling of the engines that are on the boat. Everyone should find out and know what the law requires before hand and not after the fact.

From what I've learned of Tenn. it could be quite frightening. As in how would one determine if the seller is the rightful owner, such as in the case I desribe. Were in my mind they are not the rightful legal owner and it just might come back to bite some one. From the sounds of it I could buy this boat then take it to a relative in Tenn., have them registar it in Tenn. to aquire legal ownership then bring it back to Wisconsin and reregistar it and would then never need the original title. Even though in the state of Illinois that boat would be or could be considered stolen.

 

[bgc]

Re: Used boats - no title = beware

How do you mean? To get a lost or replacement or that Ohio just does not issue them for boats at all?

In Ohio any Boat 14' or greater, PWC, and Outboard motors greater than 9.9HP are titled.

If your are the legal owner and misplace your title you have to go through a formal process of requesting a replacement title.
If you are not the legal owner and are in possession without the legal owners knowledge, its theft.


The only other circumstance are abandoned vessels (there are 4 at the shop now). You must send certified notification to the legal owner of the whereabouts of the vessel and the reason for contact (such as, owes for services/storage, or inquiring about signing title to another person). If they are not receptive/responsive, The way to get a title for the vessel is to have an auction. Must be advertised in local publications for a period of time, filed with state, any money over amount on bill is surrendered to treasurer. If you buy a boat in Ohio without a title, you're in for a world of headaches....

 

[The Famous Grouse]

Re: Used boats - no title = beware

Probably true on the situation you described, but not a true generalization to every state. In TN there are no boat titles, all you need is notarized bill of sale. If I were to sell you my boat, all I would have is the original boat show sale to the first owner, a notarized bill of sale from him to me, and the fact that I have had it continuously registered in this state. I have no title, though.

Even in states that require no title for boats, there is still a cautionary tale here.

Just beause you only need a bill of sale, doesn't negate the fact that first the boat MUST be legally yours to sell. If it's not, the legal owner could materialize and reclaim the boat from the unsuspecting buyer.

Bottom line is that even in a non-title state, as a buyer I'd avoid any boat where ownership is in possible dispute.

Grouse

 

[bonz_d]

Re: Used boats - no title = beware

Neither Tagerman or sickwilly stated whether they also get a registration card with their numbers that shows them as the owner. I know Wisconsin does and that it also states that the card must be present while on the water and must also be submitted when there is a transfer of ownership.

Now I have on the other hand been through the nightmare of buying a boat that was from a title rquired state and the owner didn't have it because it was used as a pond boat and he never transfered the title to his name and then lost it over the years. I almost scrapped that boat but was finally able to get the title straightened out. The work involved was well more than the boat was worth and almost as much as I'd paid for it!

Which brings me back to the origin of this post. The boat in question may very well be worth what the asking price is, if it had a title, which it had being from Illinois. W/O that title or other court ordered judgement it's worth nothing. Or, with the title the boat has value, w/o it there is no value because in this case the chance of getting one is slim at best because of the property dispute. This seller knows the legal owner and if the legal owner was going to surrender the title I believe they already would have! The seller also refuses to obtain a court judgement and has stated that it's up to the buyer to do so which is also impossible. The buyer has no legal way to buy it and then obtain a court judgement! Very hard to do as a third party. Not worth the exspense in this case.