Uneven plug fouling! THE PROBLEM CONTINUES!

[Boomyal]

What should the compression be, in psi, on a 9:1 c/r Ford 302?

 

[Dunaruna]

Re: Uneven plug fouling! THE PROBLEM CONTINUES!

Early windsor, yeah?<br /><br />This is out of an auto manual.<br /><br />125 - 165 PSI. No more that 20 PSI variation.

 

[Boomyal]

Re: Uneven plug fouling! THE PROBLEM CONTINUES!

Yeah, I'm in that range but I'm having a plug problem. I think it might have something to do with pushrod length/ valve clearance after putting roller rockers on my 'new' motor. The machine shop also put caps on top of the valve stems without shimming the rockers or changing the pushrod length. I have the original Autolite platinum plugs that came out of this motor and they are all evenly colored. Since discovering this, I did several things to try to correct it.<br /><br />First running an MSD 6A ignition, I discovered that my new wire set were stainless steel Magstars. A real no no for MSD ignitions. I put in a new set of 8mm spiral wound wires.<br /><br />I hogged out the 4 seperate holes in the 1" carb spacer.<br /><br />I reduced the primary jets from 64's to 62's.<br /><br />I went one heat range hotter on the plugs.<br /><br />But they still look like this:<br /><br />

 

[Buttanic]

Re: Uneven plug fouling! THE PROBLEM CONTINUES!

Looks like uneven fuel distribution. Some cylinders are running rich and some are lean. If you have a dual plane manifold check if all the lean ones are fed from one plane and all the rich ones from the other plane. If that is the case the carburator is not delivering fuel equally on each side of the manifold.

 

[rbezdon]

Re: Uneven plug fouling! THE PROBLEM CONTINUES!

While I was looking at the pictures I hadnt seen Butanics post but it was exactly the same conclusion I came to. I think cylinders 2, 3, 5, 8 are all fed from one plane and if you look they are all pretty much the same color (8 is just slightly dark but not fouled like the other 4). All of the others are definately fuel fouled. This would lead me to conclude you have some carb issue, possibly a bad float bowl gasket or some thing causing a fuel leak into one side of the carb. Try looking down the throat of the carb when idling and see if you have something dripping into one side.

 

[Boomyal]

Re: Uneven plug fouling! THE PROBLEM CONTINUES!

The fuel distribution idea is the reason that I hogged out the 4 individual holes in the 1" spacer in an attempt to even out any fuel distribution between the planes. <br /><br />These plugs have been run at 2k rpm, at operating temperature and then shut down an pulled. I did watch down the venturis as it was running. Of course the butterflys were barely open at 2k. The only thing that was apparent was a little moisture beading on the tops of the butterflys. (Fuel or condensation)<br /><br />I have another carburetor, I will give that a try.

 

[Boomyal]

Re: Uneven plug fouling! THE PROBLEM CONTINUES!

Well, I finally got around to giving that 'new, carburetor a try. It was an automotive Holley 650. This was the result:<br /><br />

<br /><br />As you can imagine I sent my Holley marine carb packing off to the Carb Doc. Even he was a bit puzzled when I showed him the two different set of plugs. But he promised to look into it and try to come up with an answer and resolution.<br /><br />I'm just hoping that by the time I get done with this it would not have been better just to pop for a new carb or the Holley TBI system, to begin with.

 

[Dunaruna]

Re: Uneven plug fouling! THE PROBLEM CONTINUES!

Exactly what is the difference between a holley 'marine' and a holley 'auto'?

 

[Boomyal]

Re: Uneven plug fouling! THE PROBLEM CONTINUES!

Originally posted by Dunaruna:<br /> Exactly what is the difference between a holley 'marine' and a holley 'auto'?

Aldo, it's nothing to do with this circumstance, it's just that one was working well and one was not.<br /><br />Most but not all differences are safety related. <br /><br />They have 'J' tube float bowl breathers that would dump any overflow back down the carburetor. <br /><br />They have special throttle shaft bushings that resist wear and keep fuel from leaking out.<br /><br />They have a special exterior coating to reduce oxidation from a wet environment.<br /><br />They do not have the choke 'step cam' for warm up. They rely on keeping the throttle forward as long as it is necessary to be able to reduce rpm for shift purposes.<br /><br />They also do not have the myriad of vacuum ports for vacuum advance distribs, PCV hose hook-up and one or two others.<br /><br />I think there might also be some difference in the linkage related to auto trans kick down shifting.<br /><br />Got it Aldo? <br /><br />This was just another repair odessy like my daughter's horn relay. I seem to have a bunch of those lately, where it takes weeks to come to an understanding and solution.

 

[man-of-war]

Re: Uneven plug fouling! THE PROBLEM CONTINUES!

the problem you have is not a carb problem,check your vaccum,look for a steady nedel.put around 60 psi of air into each cylinder to see if all valves are shuting, like a leak down test.

 

[Boomyal]

Re: Uneven plug fouling! THE PROBLEM CONTINUES!

Originally posted by man-of-war:<br /> the problem you have is not a carb problem,check your vaccum,look for a steady nedel.put around 60 psi of air into each cylinder to see if all valves are shuting, like a leak down test.

man-of-war, I did just that. Compression was 120-130 psi all around, leakdown showed a small amount of bypass into the crankcase, none out the exhaust or up thru the carb.<br /><br />Vacuum test was a rock steady 17 in at idle and rock steady 22 in at 2000 rpm.<br /><br />I was getting ready to tear half the boat apart and examine the pushrod and valve clearance before I tried the 'new' carb. In mine and the machine shops opinion, after seeing the two sets of plugs, it was a carb issue.<br /><br />If you know something more please state it. Because the machine shop did put caps on the valve stems when they installed the pedestal mount roller rockers, I originally suspected valve clearance issues. This was a stock, untouched motor with original pushrods when the rockers were added at 35k mi and the motor was converted for marine.

 

[rbezdon]

Re: Uneven plug fouling! THE PROBLEM CONTINUES!

Boom, it looks like the work you put into posting the pictures paid off. Butanic and I both came to the same conclusion from the pics and it looks like you are on your way to solving the problem. By the way, I would not totally discasrd the vacuum thing, it actually could be a warp or hairline crack you cant see in the marine carb. I am not too sure you wouldnt be better off buying the new marine Holley afterall.

 

[Boomyal]

Re: Uneven plug fouling! THE PROBLEM CONTINUES!

Originally posted by vatter41:<br /> By the way, I would not totally discasrd the vacuum thing,

Yeah vatter, what did we do before the digital age? It sure allows you to take of advantage of the 'a picture is worth a thousand words' saying. <br /><br />Not sure what you mean by the above? When I dropped the carb off last nite the carb guru mentioned that Holley was known to have occassional porosity problems with the metering block, but he was surprised by the looks of the plugs.<br /><br />Someone, here, recently reposted a link to the Holley TBI. I looked into that last year and I swear they had either dropped $800+ TBI 2 bbl system or jacked the price up not to far from 2 grand. So I quit looking.<br /><br />Being a novice at this engine stuff, I paid way too much for the 4bbl used, had to rebuild it. It still had the old cork gaskets that had shrunk and split. I then bought a used 450 cfm Holley 4 bbl. It was an ancient piece of junk.<br />By the time this is all done I would have been way ahead to fork out the dough for the TBI or at minimum a brand new Holley 4bbl. <br /><br />Add to all this, my stolen motors and the mechanical part of my restoration project has been a nightmare.

 

[Boomyal]

Re: Uneven plug fouling! THE PROBLEM CONTINUES!

After successfully running my friends 650 automotive Holley I took my Marine Holley to the rebuilder. $125.00 later, I reinstall it on my engine, with clean set of plugs, and get the exact same results as shown on my original picture.<br /><br />As I cannot reach the rebuilder and I'm down to the last week before I need the boat for a Boy Scout crab trip next weekend, I put a stop payment on my check and go buy a brand new Holley Marine Carb.<br /><br />I install and run it, then pull the plugs. Although the severity of fouling is less, the problem still exists.<br /><br />In frustration, I call my friend and he pulls his Holley 650 back off of his Jeep Wagoneer, I go retrieve it, put in a clean set of plugs, all this in an attempt to reverify that A carb will run on my motor with even fuel distribution to the cylinders.<br /><br />NOW HERE IS THE AMAZING PART. Keep in mind I am running a Pertronix ignitor and an MSD 6A ignition. As the Holley 650 does not have the proper throttle linkage on it, I screw down the idle screw a few turns and fire up the motor. It starts nicely and runs nicely, I grab my digital tach and start screwing down the idle screw to bring it up to 2000 rpm, where I will run it for 20 minutes to take a color reading on the plugs. As I am adjusting it up from the intial 1600 rpm, I happen to glance down on the right side of the engine and there are FOUR PLUG WIRES LAYING ON THE BILGE FLOOR!!!!!!I forgot to plug them back in but the motor is running as smooth as can be at about 1800 rpm.<br /><br />I get up, shut off the motor, reconnect the 4 plug wires and restart the motor. It jumps right up to about 2200 rpm. I dial down the idle screw to 2k rpm and let it run the 20 minutes. I pulled all the plugs and they are identical to the first test run of this carb. All plugs are evenly, lightly colored.<br /><br />I decide that I will borrow the Automotive carb for the crab trip. I am out of time to mess around even further. I ended up taking the two sets of plugs and the Holley back to the autoparts store. They had nothing constructive to say. So I got a refund. The sad part is that new Marine Holleys have eliminated the float bowl level inspection screws and the external float adjustment screws on top of the float bowls.<br /><br />I found a Barry Grant Sea Demon Carb at Jegs for only $40.00 more than I paid for the Holley so I will probably order it. Either that or I will have to pop for the Holley TBI System. <br /><br />I am worn out crawling in and out of that boat. pulling plugs and carburetors.

 

[KaGee]

Re: Uneven plug fouling! THE PROBLEM CONTINUES!

Gettin old is hell 'eh Boomer?

 

[Don S]

Re: Uneven plug fouling! THE PROBLEM CONTINUES!

Taking a bunch of Scouts on a boat with an automotive carb that is also a possible explosion/fire hazard is just plain irresponsible and putting a bunch of kids in danger for no reason. A crab trip could turn out very expensive if something goes wrong. And don't say it can't happen to you...... It can.<br /><br />Another mistake you made is putting a stop payment on a check without at least talking with the rebuilder.<br />I have run into carbs that were not rebuildable, for no reason that could be seen. All passages clear, but it wouldn't work. I had a QJet on my engine the same way. Even had another mechanic recheck everything, all looked fine. But it wouldn't work. Replaced it and every thing was fine. Even tried it on a different engine with the same results. Still have that carb and still can't find out why. Even spent $50 to get it checked at a Carb rebuild facility. They found nothing wrong, knowing there was a problem.<br />What I am getting at, is your rebuilder probably did his job, and deserves to be paid for his services, or allowed to fix the problem if he can.

 

[Boomyal]

Re: Uneven plug fouling! THE PROBLEM CONTINUES!

Originally posted by Don S:<br /> What I am getting at, is your rebuilder probably did his job, and deserves to be paid for his services, or allowed to fix the problem if he can.

Appreciate all of your input and concern Don. As far as the rebuilder is concerned, I would agree except for the following things. <br /><br />When I dropped the carb off I told him of my deadline. He took twice as long to do the job as he originally indicated. <br /><br />When I called him, the same afternoon I picked it up, with the results (incidently, more fouled than before he worked on it) all I got was a recording that did not even spell out the name of his business. The next morning, at 9:30 am, I went to his shop and it was closed with nothing posted as to when he might be there and a neighbor said 5 people had already been looking for him that morning. I then called again, at noon on Friday, only to get the same recording. At that point I called and stopped payment on my check. <br /><br />Considering his unwillingness to post his availability during normal business hours I do not have much inclination to give him the courtesy of a second chance.