Understanding Livewell System - Isolating a Leak

[Rick76]

I have little experience with livewell systems and just purchased a 16' Sea Nymph FM161 that has one. The boat is a 1990 and I bought it from someone I know, so the information I am starting with should be accurate.

The boat has not seen water for 2 years, so after cleaning it up I took it to my local dryland marina and had it all checked over. They did the usual. Checked and reported on all systems, tuned up and changed the lower ends oil on both the main motor and kicker for me and replaced the trailer bearings (on my request). They reported that the engines ran fine, bilge worked, livewell worked, nav lights worked, etc.

So, this morning I take 'er down for her inaugural launch, only to find out as soon as the boat hits with water the automatic bilge pump kicks in. I jumped in and started to try and troubleshoot but I could not see anything unusual. By this time the ramp was starting to get lined up so I decided to pull it out again and continue to troubleshoot when parked.

As soon as I stopped my vehicle, I went around to the stern and noticed that, while the bilge was still pumping water out of the discharge hole on the side of the hull, water was gushing out of the livewell drain hole just as fast. And of course, as soon as I took the bilge drainplug out, water started pouring out of there as well.

So trying to figure this out, how was so much water coming out of my livewell discharge hole when I never filled it in the first place. Any help would be appreciated by this livewell newb.

 

[woody66912]

Re: Understanding Livewell System - Isolating a Leak

Plug off the drain & and fill.
put some water in your live-well then have a look see in the bilge.

 

[Rick76]

Re: Understanding Livewell System - Isolating a Leak

Do you mean at the transom or in the livewell and typically, are livewells drained by gravity or usually "pumped out"?

I think I understand what you are checking for but if the livewell IS leaking into the bilge, how did the water get into the livewell in the first place because I know I didn't pump any in?

Inside the livewell there are two lines coming in. They both enter the well horizontally on the stern side of the well at the bottom. One then goes up vertically and attaches to a horizontal 12" tube at the top of the well with holes in it. I assume this is the aerator. And if that's the case, then that's connected to the through-hull fitting and pump at the transom and is used to fill the well.

The other tube enters horizontally beside the first. This horizontal piece is about 2" long and open (no attachments, plugs, screens, etc.). From this 2" tube, another tube is attached to it (like a plumbing 'T') and rises vertically to close to the top of the well and is also open. I assume this is the overflow drain-off tube. But if that is the case, shouldn't the bottom piece (2" horizontal) be plugged?

The boat was completely dry after sitting on land for 2 years. It wasn't in the water more that 2 minutes when the automatic bilge pump kicked in. There are no visible holes or leaky/loose rivets/seams on the hull from the outside. The bilge plug WAS in and yet she was taking as much water on as if the bilge plug was NOT in (been there, done that).

Just trying to understand the principle of how this is supposed to work so I can figure out how to troubleshoot before I have to get to pulling up the floor. Thanks for your assistance.

 

[woody66912]

Re: Understanding Livewell System - Isolating a Leak

Without seeing your setup it's hard to tell what you have. Yes I mean plugging the outside of the boat, all your doing hear is reversing what happened in the water, by filling your livewell on land you than can then look in the bilge and see where in the plumbing the water is leaking inside the boat

 

[Rick76]

Re: Understanding Livewell System - Isolating a Leak

Thanks for your assistance Woody. I think I understand what you are getting at. I didn't get a chance to do much yesterday but did take a couple of pictures of my set up. I will try a couple of things today and report back.

The first picture (IMG_0304s) is of the bilge area. From the left; The "white pump" is the automatic bilge pump and it discharges up to the left (or starboard side) above the waterline. The "tan pump" is connected to the livewell intake/aerator I believe and the black hose circles up and to the right then back down inside that transom support, then runs up under the floor to the livewell parallel to the larger black hose on the right. So if that is correct, then the larger black hose on the right connected to the white through-hull fitting must be the livewell discharge.

The next picture (IMG_0305s) is the same picture taken just a little more to the left.

The third picture (IMG_0306s) is showing the transom fittings from the outside. Assuming my descriptions from picture 1 are correct; left (port) side white = livewell discharge, centre (close to first) = bilge plug and the last one, right (starboard) side black = livewell intake.

And the last picture (IMG_0307s) is looking into the livewell from above (bottom of picture towards the stern); black hose and tan tube = intake/aerator, silver tube with opening at top and bottom = livewell discharge.

And while I am on the subject of the discharge tube inside the livewell.....when fishing, after filling the livewell with water, shouldn't that bottom hole be plugged off to "hold the water" in the well? My friend has a Tracker boat with a very similar layout to mine but in his livewell, he has a hole (similar to a small sink drain) in the bottom of his well. Once the well is full of water, he puts a 1 1/4" x 12" tube into that drain hole and it also acts as an overflow tube. Unfortunately he is away this weekend and I can't get a hold of him fro advice.

I will post the results of my "driveway experiments" later today.

 

[Outsider]

Re: Understanding Livewell System - Isolating a Leak

I suspect when your dry land marina said the bilge and livewell worked, they really meant the pumps were operative. You have something open to the lake to put that much water in that quick. Put a water hose in the bilge and I suspect it will be evident pretty quick. And to answer your other question, the lower part of the drain should be plugged, otherwise you may never fill the well or be able to turn the pump off ...

 

[Rick76]

Re: Understanding Livewell System - Isolating a Leak

Problem solved. I removed the 4" diameter drain cover on the floor just behind the livewell and sure enough, the hose that was supposed to be connected to the discharge flange was completely off and laying in the bottom of the boat. Just to confirm, I poured some water into the discharge fitting on the transom and it came running out the end laying in the bottom of the boat.

They mystery is, this hose has still got the hose clamp on it but is about 6" shy of meeting the discharge flange on the livewell. I gave it a tug but it wouldn't move at all and I didn't want to pull too hard in fear of disconnecting it from another possible connection somewhere under the floor. So I guess I will just have to add a 6" extension piece.

Thanks Woody and Outsider for all your help. It is much appreciated.

 

[advntrs]

Re: Understanding Livewell System - Isolating a Leak

I think I am about to experience the same type of problem. I just purchased a used 1991 16' in great shape. However, he stated that some time ago he started experiencing flooding in the boat until he plugged up the live well intake and return holes.

It sounds like it is gravity feeding and then flooding the boat on the overflow side.

I have not had a chance to get into it yet, but if I have any questions, I will return......

I don't understand what Sea Nymph has done to their live well system.....What is the orange tube and how does it operate?

I used to own a 14' Nymph, and it was a straight forward "pump water in and gravity feed out". I need to get a schematic of the system they use before I get too far into it......Not sure about the front well yet.

 

[Rick76]

Re: Understanding Livewell System - Isolating a Leak

I'm not sure if they changed anything in 1991 but in my 1990, there are only 2 holes/hoses; fill and drain and the hoses are both brown. After speaking with a friend that has a similar set up in a Tracker boat I was able to determine that I am missing a plug that needs to be put in the drain tube near the bottom of the well when I want to "pump" water into the well using the fill/aerator line.

As in my picture above, the drain tube enters the well horizontally near the bottom and is about 2" long inside the well. Coming off of this 2" piece is a longer piece about 8-9" long which sits vertically against the rear well wall creating essentially and inverted 'T'. This longer tube is the overflow tube, ensuring when the well is full it does not spill over on to the floor.

There is a 3-way toggle switch on the dash for the livewell labelled 'Aerator'. Centered is off. Left is Automatic and right is Manual. So when I want to fill the well, I plug the drain hole in the well first than turn the toggle to Manual. Once there are fish in the well, I flip the toggle to Aerator and it will inject a bit of fresh water in the well every so often.

Then when it is time to drain the well, I just remove the plug from the drain tube inside the well and the water gravity feeds out into the lake.

It sounds like your drain hose has come uncoupled somewhere between the well and the transom fitting. In my case, it was at the well and was easy to spot through the 4" drain cover on the floor just behind the well. Why it came uncoupled and why it was 6" shy of meeting the drain tube on the well was my mystery. I ended up just buying another short piece of tubing, a plastic coupling and a couple more hose clamps at Home Depot and putting it back together. Although it was pretty tough trying to do all this through a 4" diameter hole with one hand. I may find out more this winter as I plan on redoing the floor and carpeting.

As far as finding schematics, I have done a lot of searching since buying my Sea Nymph and it seems that there is not much available since Lowe bought the company. If you are able to find anything useful, I would appreciate a heads up.

 

[advntrs]

Re: Understanding Livewell System - Isolating a Leak

Thanks Rick...............Your pictures look exactly like mine.......I know these live well systems are not really complicated.......I believe he told me that he had replaced the floor with new carpet, (it looks very nice). I think he either knocked the hose off the drain or moved the fuel tank enough (under the floor) and collapsed the hose.

I don't think this guy is too boat savy. This whole thing is way beyond him, so he plugged up both the intake and drain and buckets water in and out of the well.

The only thing that is bothering me is that he says his live well will "gravity fill". I didn't think that was possible with the pump in line.

Somewhere is has pulled some hoses off, because it should never gravity fill unless water is flowing backwards up the drain line. If that's the case, it is and always has been a plug issue. I plan to jump on it this weekend. Other than that one issue, it is a very nice boat and will last me a long time.

Thanks for the reply.............I will let you know how everything come out. (No pun intended).

 

[advntrs]

Re: Understanding Livewell System - Isolating a Leak

Rick76............I found the problem.......There was a large hole in the front live well drain hose. Most of the water was running into the boat. Seems to drain pretty slow also. I think I shall try to flush this line out as I repair it.

I had to take up some of the flooring to find the damage to the hose.....Not too bad of a fix....Should finish it up tomorrow.

The rear live well performs perfectly.

 

[Rick76]

Re: Understanding Livewell System - Isolating a Leak

Good find advntrs. Too much fishing pressure (lol). In my case I was thinking about this the other day; to make sure I purge these lines and add antifreeze before the winter. Otherwise I will end up with a split hose too! Thanks for sharing.

Also, a question about your floor. I am considering re-doing my floors this winter. All of the smaller side pieces and casting deck look pretty straight forward but it appears that the main floor is all one piece. It looks like my console is riveted through the flood. I know I can just drill those out but what I am concerned with is trying to "support" the console high enough without disturbing cables and wires while I remove and replace the floor.

Is your main floor also one piece and if it is, how did you just lift part of it to fix your hose? Or did you end up cutting a piece out?

 

[advntrs]

Re: Understanding Livewell System - Isolating a Leak

Rick76,

Well, I ended up replacing the whole floor. LOL.............I thought since I had a third of the floor up already and the boat being 21 years old I would just put a new floor in using new marine 1/2" plywood.

I actually found a large section of drain hose in the middle of the boat that was completely destroyed. (Probably ice). Anyway, I repaired that then replaced the entire floor from the front step-up to the back of the boat. Not too bad of a job. I merely used the old wood for patterns and went in pretty easy. The floor was in about 5 sections, and I reduced to to 3.

On your project, I think I would just suspend the console from overhead. If you can get an engine hoist, that would be ideal. (maybe a little overkill though LOL)

I used #8X1" countersunk, self tapping stainless steel screws...............Other than killing my back and it being 97 degrees, the job was really pretty simple.................One suggestion I would make, as long as you have your floors up, replace your drain hoses and place them along one side if possible then cut and replace your floor so that you can get back into it if you have any "water" problems. I just ran one piece of plywood 14" wide along the entire length of the boat, so I can get to my hoses pretty easy now.

Tomorrow I re-lay the carpet and put my boat back together after I sand all of the joints smooth and caulk them

 

[Rick76]

Re: Understanding Livewell System - Isolating a Leak

That's a great idea advntrs. I will have a look at the floor support system when I get it out to see the best way to accomplish that. Funny that mine appears to be one piece now compared to yours. I'm assuming this because where each of the separate pieces on the casting deck butt up to each other, the carpeting is wrapped around the plywood about 2" and stapled on the underside. So you can see the seams clearly and of course, the pattern of the screws holding each piece down.

On the main floor there are no seams at all, indicating it is all one piece. But just thinking about it, there is no reason it can't be more than one piece and it will make it much easier to handle. And I was thinking about suspending my console with ropes up to the rafters in my garage. I was just hoping to start this project once the fishing season is over!

 

[advntrs]

Re: Understanding Livewell System - Isolating a Leak

Yep, I would, for sure do the floor in more than one piece. I don't see how I could maneuver a one piece floor around since I have to have someplace to stand. The best I could come up with as far as the easiest is 3 pieces. Once it is screwed into place and the carpet is laid, you will never tell how many pieces are under there anyway.

I think if I had to do it again, I would build an access door beneath both live wells. That could be done by cutting the hatch and putting some angle aluminum in to hold the doors in place. Probably install flush handle pulls to keep everything out of the way. That way, if I had any further problems I can get to them by just lifting the panels.

We have not had a fishing season here in Indiana........It got hot in March and has been very hot ever since. Most of the lakes are dangerously low.. Have had quite a few boating accidents here because of that.

 

[Rick76]

Re: Understanding Livewell System - Isolating a Leak

Interesting that you installed the carpeting after the plywood is screwed into place. I have had several of my wooden panels off for wiring and speaker installs and have noticed that each of my wooden panels are individually carpeted, with the carpeting wrapping around the plywood and overlapping underneath by about 2" then stapled along that strip.

So my intent was to do the same thing, using the old floor pieces as templates for sizing and holes etc., then gluing the carpeting on before installing. I would like to do the main lower floor in 3 pieces with one of those about a foot wide and running the entire length from the casting deck step back to the bilge. This way I will have total access to the livewell hoses and connections from front to back.

Regarding the fishing season up here, while it hasn't been stellar, it hasn't been bad either. I live on Lake Simcoe which is about an hour north of Toronto. This one lake offers us Lakers, White Fish, Walleye, Perch, Smallmouth and Largemouth Bass and is a good year-round fishery. And, within about a 60-90 minute drive, we have access to 3 Great Lakes including Georgian Bay, the Muskoka Lakes System, the Trent River System, Kawartha Lake System, Rideau Canal System and hundreds of small lakes. Now you can throw in Rainbow, Brown Trout, Salmon, Musky, Sturgeon, Northern Pike, Suckers, Cats, Carp and a host of lesser species.

Now if I could only find a job that doesn't interfere with my fishing!!!