Two-stroke with oil crankcase

steamboatwilly

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A Detroit-Diesel is two-stroke with oil in crankcase.Few moving parts.Never needs much maintenance.Twice horsepower as four-stroke.Very light.Very,very dependable..Very easy on fuel.Why dont somebody build gas boat motors on this priciple?
 

JB

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Re: Two-stroke with oil crankcase

The supercharger, James, and it is a Diesel. "Very light" is a very relative term.<br /><br />Most outboards are built on the 2 stroke principle, but they are vertical shaft (no sump) and a supercharger would make them too heavy.
 

JB

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Re: Two-stroke with oil crankcase

Exactly. But the Verado are 4 strokes.
 

Silvertip

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Re: Two-stroke with oil crankcase

Why complicate a two stroke outboard by requiring oil changes. Although the Verado is a four-stroke, it is also hardly a lightweight.
 

rodbolt

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Re: Two-stroke with oil crankcase

look at what your saying.<br /> yes there are thousands of brands of 2 stroke diesels made in all sizes all over the world.<br /> the advantage of a two stroke is a power impulse each time the piston arrives at TDC rather than every other time. holds for diesel or gasoline or propane or any other 2 stroke VS 4 stroke engine.<br /> as that diesel does not rely on the crank,rod and wristpins to be lubricated by the incoming air charge it has to have a sump.<br /> that diesel uses sleeve bearings which require an oil film as opposed to most 2 strokes which use needle/rollers which dont do well in a film of oil but rather a mist.<br /> that 2 stroke detroit also uses a valve train arrangement for the injectors and intake valving.<br /> let it get out of adjustment and watch it smoke.<br /> oil leaks on the 2 stroke detroit just means its working ok.<br />like a harley,if it aint leaking it aint running.<br />and a detroit is anything but light, it may be lighter than some but every inline or V detroit I ever played with was a monster compared to a gas motor.<br /> now a really really neat diesel is the duetz(spelling) air cooled diesel. its light and runs very reliably.
 

TheOilDoc

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Re: Two-stroke with oil crankcase

Yamaha has successfully developed sumpless 4-strokes. They use one in their snowmobile and its a power monster.
 

rodbolt

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Re: Two-stroke with oil crankcase

oil doc<br /> look close at the 4 stroke outboards.<br /> most have the sump in the midsection<br /> while not a true dry sump, it has no scavange pump, its as close as your gonna get.
 

CFronzek

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Re: Two-stroke with oil crankcase

A 2-stroke industrial/marine inboard diesel works on a different principle than the gasoline 2-strokes that are seen in motorcycles and outboards. <br />The problem is this: there is no intake cycle in a 2-stroke. So how does the air/fuel mix get into the cylinder? Bikes and outboards use the underside of the piston to suck in fresh charge and pump it thru' the transfer ports into the combustion chamber. Lube oil is in the gas. Very simple and cheap to produce and fairly light weight. <br />But, industrial quality diesels demand eyepopping compression ratios. And the internal stresses are enormous. So the lubrication system has to be high volume to keep everything alive. That means a large sump/pump system which elininates using the crankcase as the intake system ala gas 2-strokes.So an outside pump, a supercharger driven by exhaust gas, belt or gears gets the air into the combustion chamber and the fuel comes in by way of an injector. The pieces that make this sucker go cost an arm and a leg. These motors are constructed for the long haul and cost a lot of long green. A come the day that one needs an overhaul they shell out the block and put in everything new for big $$$. <br />One thing I am not familiar with are those tiny 1 and 2 cylinder diesels that are common throughout the world. I can't imagine they are fuel injected and supercharged.
 

jtexas

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Re: Two-stroke with oil crankcase

while we're at it, gas turbine engines are lighter, have fewer moving parts and are capable of producing tremendous power with amazing reliablity...nah, never mind ;)
 

CFronzek

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Re: Two-stroke with oil crankcase

The gummint put turbines in a previuos model tank. It was a massive headache. The currant MBT's use a good old fasioned 4-cycle DIESEL.
 
D

DJ

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Re: Two-stroke with oil crankcase

Detroit Diesels, as we knew them, were two stroke-supecharged-with a valve train (exhaust only) and fuel injection, as described. The block was pressurized by the supercharger (gear driven) and the air charge entered the cylinder via ports in the cylinder liner. They were also miserable oil leakers and the power bands were extremely narrow, not unlike 2-stroke outboards. <br /><br /> How does all this relate to outboards? The Detroit was an animal all it's own. However, the introduction of the air charge was similar two any 2-stroke. The exhaust side (valves) was somewhat unique to the Detroit. As we know, 2-stroke outboards do not have exhaust valves. The exhaust valves were needed to build the compression ratios high enough to ignite diesel fuel.<br /><br />Detroits required constant "fiddling" with the valve trains and unit injectors to keep them in a reasonable state of tune. They also were not particularly well known for their longevity compared to other diesels. They produced allot of HP for their size but suffered many malodies, as mentioned. Plus, they were extremely dirty regarding emissions.<br /><br />With all that said, they had their place. They were relatively cheap as compared to others.<br /><br />A little history.<br /><br />They (DD's) were versatile. They came, for the mostpart, in four types: 53, 71, 92 and 149 series. The numbers referred to the cubic inches of each cylinder. Each cylinder was an engine in itself. As an example: a "6-71" was a six cylinder with 71 cubes in each cylinder.<br /><br />Because of the design, the engineers could make the blocks in many variants: in lines, v-types and a combination of those bolted together. As an example: a "12V-92" was two 6V-92's bolted together.<br /><br />I have worked on many variants from 2-53's to 12V-92's. Once you know the basics of the design of the engine family, working on any variant was relatively simple. Later variants had 4-valve/cylinder heads and (DDEC) electronically controlled injection.<br /><br />There was just no way the 2-stroke Detroits could pass the first automotive wave of diesel emissions controls started in 1994. Thus, they were relegated to industrial/marine applications. However, there are millions of them out there dating back to the early 1940's. They were replaced by the "Series 60" which is a four stroke design.<br /><br /><br />The DFI outboards of today are still basically block scavanged designs with sophisticated fuel injection systems. The four strokes are not really any different than any other four stroke design whether it was automotive or industrial based. Whether it's carbed, fuel injected or Supercharged really makes little difference other than the potential power output of the engine.<br /><br />I suppose one could turbo or supercharge a DFI 2-stroke, but sealing the crankcase would be a major headache, just like the Detroit Diesel was.<br /><br />I think DFI 2-strokes definetely have a place in the marine world, because of their weight advantages. They are proving to be as efficient and robust as four strokes. Technology has made that possible.
 

rodbolt

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Re: Two-stroke with oil crankcase

DJ<br /> yep.<br /> leaking smokeing pigs that actually ran a long time if maintained.<br /> I agree on the DFI outboards.<br /> the quality and longevity is getting better every year.<br /> the first years of them were not so good.<br /> the FICHT's were dismall, the opti-max positivly terrible and the HPDI had issues all on its own.<br /> however it got better and gets better every year.<br /> the draw back is the get more complex and tolerate no system degradation.
 

JasonJ

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Aug 20, 2001
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Re: Two-stroke with oil crankcase

Cyahogachuck, if you are talking about the M1 Tank, it still has the turbine. The turbine in that tank is very reliable and will not be going away any time soon. Yeah, it gets 1/2 mile to the gallon, but the power to weight ratio is enormous. The Russian T80 is turbine powered, the British Challenger is turbine powered (if I am remembering rightly), and I think the French tank might be turbine powered. Light weight and quietness is what is desired, and the turbine is the only thing that gets it for now.<br /><br />They originally wanted to make the M2 Bradley turbine powered when they were developing it but could not overcome the obstacle of where to void the exhaust heat due to the front engine layout of the vehicle. So the Cummins 903T V8 Turbodiesel was used, and its 800 horsepower is adequate for the job. That engine is the most reliable part of the M2.
 
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