Turbo 1 vs. Turbo Lightning

[realmasa]

Which one is more suitable for a DC 20 feet with Yamaha 200HPDI weighing 2800lbs in total? I'm thinking of a 21" pitch prop.<br />Here's a pic of my boat:<br /> http://personal.inet.fi/surf/masa/6110.jpg

 

[stevens]

Re: Turbo 1 vs. Turbo Lightning

Just as a start, what is that prop you have on there in the picture? And what would you want to achieve by changing it?<br /><br />I am by no means an expert at this (but do ask Dhadley or Walleyehed on this forum). However, I've seen boats exactly like yours fly by and they seem to plane well and rise out of the water nicely at speed. Nice V-hull that seems to handle the waves well.<br /><br />Now, I am guessing here, but I would think either prop would probably work well, with the Lightning giving you slightly more top-end speed, and the Turbo 1 giving better low-end and mid-range performance. And, if you like to pile in the wife & kids, all their stuff and your mother-in-law as well, my guess is the Turbo 1 will handle the load better.<br /><br />But again, I am merely guessing here. The real experts will probably come along shortly.<br /><br />Are you sure about the 21" pitch? Might be wise to try some out before your buy, starting with the same pitch that it came with from the factory.<br /><br />On my boat (an Ibiza, similar to yours but with a Mercury inboard), I ended up going from the 23" standard Black Max alu prop to a 22" four-blade Turbo. The 23" Turbo 1 was too much, and all the 21"s I tried were too little. A 23" Stiletto would probably also be OK, but it took a lot of experimentation to find the exactly right one.

 

[realmasa]

Re: Turbo 1 vs. Turbo Lightning

Hi Stevens,<br /><br />It's a ballistic 14 3/8 x 21. I'm planning to install CMC hydraulic jack plate PL-65, and i need props that suit my boat, engine and that can handle higher engine heights.<br />21" pitch gave me 5300rpm at WOT, are turbos more aggressive? Do I need to lower/upper pitch if decide to buy Turbo 1 or Lightning and Turbo 2+2 and keeping the RPM at WOT.<br />I been reading the archives alot and Dhadley and Walleyehed seems to know alot about Turbo props and hydraulic jack plates, hope they will post on this topic.<br />Can your engine really turn a 22" four blade turbo? Is it 13" in diameter?<br />And yes, the boat goes really well in the water, almost flying on top of it. <br />I wonder what the lightning with higher rake would do.

 

[stevens]

Re: Turbo 1 vs. Turbo Lightning

Hi again,<br /><br />Here's the thread where I reported on the different props (thread) . The Ballistic was a 14 3/8 diameter, the others have all been 14,25. <br /><br />Looking at the spec's for your motor also, www.turbo-props.com recommends a 14 3/8 diameter Lightning for your engine, or a 14,25 diameter Turbo 1.<br /><br />When I went from a 21" pitch Ballistic to a 23" Turbo 1, my rpms dropped by 400. Your setup may react very differently, especially when you'll have the ability to play with engine height also. What do you currently get with the Ballistic, about 44-46 knots?<br /><br />Your rpm of 5300 seems perfectly within the recommended 4500-5500 range for your engine. Your objective is speed, so maybe a 21" Lightning would have been a good place to start. However, they don't seem to make them smaller than 23", so you may be forced to go with the Turbo 1 after all, in either 21" or maybe 22"? Or possibly a 23" Lightning when you also raise the engine some...<br /><br />I don't know enough about this to really be of any help to you, but I am sure Messrs. Dhadley or Walleyehed will be along shortly. They were very helpful to me.<br /><br />Good luck to you.

 

[walleyehed]

Re: Turbo 1 vs. Turbo Lightning

21P in a Turbo 1 would be a good prop for that rig, and with the addition of a jack-plate, you should be able to get up to the 5600-5800 RPM range with excellent top-speed.<br />Forget about anything you've seen number-wise with the Ballistic......running a Turbo1 on that rig will be like a new boat. The lightning is a very high-rake design, and I don't think you will be able to use what the lightning is capable of lift-wise.

 

[stevens]

Re: Turbo 1 vs. Turbo Lightning

Hi Walleyehed, I knew you'd come by.<br /><br />I think his max RPM is 5500 (see http://www.yamaha-motor.com/outboard/products/subcatspecs/14/specs.aspx ). <br /><br />I look forward to hearing how this goes.

 

[realmasa]

Re: Turbo 1 vs. Turbo Lightning

Stevens, do you got a lot of torque or is pitch sizes of Turbo props not comparable with e.g. ballistic props? <br /><br />Kenny, thanks for your reply. I also think the Turbo 1 would be a good choice and probably the one i'm going to buy, but i'm not sure about the pitch. The RPM range at WOT for my engine is 4500-5500, do you think i need a 23" pitch, or is too much. Also, The Turbo 2+2, is it the 4 blade version of Turbo 1, same blade geometry etc? <br />The pitch of a Turbo 2+2 is either 20" or 22" in my case, what do you think?<br /><br />Thanks,<br />Mattias

 

[walleyehed]

Re: Turbo 1 vs. Turbo Lightning

I know this is hard to do, but forget about the "range" of 4500-5500. The only number to be concerned about is 5500+.<br />If you go to a Turbo 23P, due to the higher tech design, I believe you will see more than a 400RPM drop, so let's say we are at 4800 with the engine in the same location. With a Jackplate, I don't think we will see a 700-800 RPM gain. Most likely it will be in the 5100-5200RPM range, best case....we want to be 5500+.<br />If we install the higher tech T1 in a 21P, I think we will see a slight drop in RPM as it is, so with the addition of the jackplate, I think it will be possible to attain 5500-5600RPM...perfect.<br />My 2 cents...

 

[realmasa]

Re: Turbo 1 vs. Turbo Lightning

Thanks Kenny, now it's perfectly clear. One last question on this topic, since it's rather expensive to ship a prop from the US to Finland, i'm thinking of ordering two props so i get more for the money. The second prop would be a 4 blade, do you think a 2+2 with 20" pitch would be the best choice?<br /><br />/Mattias

 

[walleyehed]

Re: Turbo 1 vs. Turbo Lightning

Remember, with a 4-blade prop we can run higher engine heigths....<br />So, if we run a 20P 4-blade higher, we may see 2 things...possibly near the same speed, but with slightly higher RPM...possibly.<br />With the correct jackplate and of course water pick-up, we might be able to raise a 22P enough to hit close to 5500...????? This is the part where only testing will tell..I know it's tuff and expensive not knowing for sure, but when it comes down to the last few R's or MPH's, it becomes trial and error.<br />I hope that Dhadley will step in on this and give his thoughts on the 4-blade. I'd guess he'd say the TH 2+2, but I'll let him speak for that ......Dale?????

 

[stevens]

Re: Turbo 1 vs. Turbo Lightning

Realmasa - I think you are getting some good advise from Mr. Walleyehed here.<br /><br />I would say however, that if you want to experiment some, I would definitely get the two props in different sizes, for example the 3 blade Turbo 1 in 21" and the 4 blade Turbo 2+2 TH in 22". The extra one inch of pitch might allow you to more than compensate for the extra drag of the one extra blade.<br /><br />If it doesn't work out, you can always sell it again locally and cover your costs. I've done this with a total of 5 props this summer, and it has been quite fun.<br /><br />You ask about comparing pitch sizes across brands, and the only answer is that it can be hard to compare directly. Two props of the same pitch, but from different brands, may behave very differently on the same boat. And, to add some confusion, the same prop may also be very different on two different boats. <br /><br />Yes, I get a bit of torque out of my engine as it is a turbodiesel with almost 200 Ft/lbs at 2000 rpm. Don't know how this compares to yours torque-wise, but I have no problems turning the 14,25 diameter props that are recommended.<br /><br />There is a shipping service called www.magnum.no that ships to Norway and Sweden quite cheaply (NOK 470 for a prop, everything included except local VAT) and very efficiently. Maybe they or someone else would also cover Finland. This way, you can buy props off ebay or local webshops that wouldn't usually ship overseas. Or, send your e-mail address to Walleyehed or Dhadley and they might have some hints as to where you could find a used one.

 

[realmasa]

Re: Turbo 1 vs. Turbo Lightning

Now you have made me confused about the four blade, 20" or 22", i'm hoping that Dhadley could give me a third opinion on this one.

 

[stevens]

Re: Turbo 1 vs. Turbo Lightning

Sorry for confusing you. I'll try to elaborate some:<br /><br />My thinking is that a 4-blade is generally a bit slower than an equivalent 3-blade. Going down in pitch also slows you down unless you can compensate with higher rpm.<br /><br />So, if the 21" 3-blade is perfect rpm-wise (and Walleyehed is probably very right on this), you couldn't increase rpm further with a 20". I would think a 22" 4-blade might give you slightly lower rpm than the 21" but maybe also slightly higher speed. Plus, a much better grip.<br /><br />But, I guess there is no other way to really find out other than to try it out on your own boat. Then, toss some Smart Tabs into the equation too to make it really complex. Fun, isn't it?

 

[realmasa]

Re: Turbo 1 vs. Turbo Lightning

Marinpropshop recommends this for my boat, however, i forgot to mention the hydraulic jack plate so i'm waiting for new recommendations..<br /><br />Here is what we recommend.<br />Same performance as you now have <br />3 blade Turbo 1 141/4 x 21 $325.00<br /><br />For extreme water<br />4 blade Ultima 4 Y141/4 x 19R4 $359.00<br /><br />For less extreme water<br />4 blade 2+2TH 141/4 x 20 $359.00

 

[Dhadley]

Re: Turbo 1 vs. Turbo Lightning

We have to remember we're talking about 2 different situations here. In the case of Mr Stevens we were stuck with his X dimension because its a stern drive. Thats why Turbo has a particular 4 blade made specifically for I/O's or sterndrives. <br /><br />With an outboard you can easily change the X dimension. Especially with a hydraulic jackplate like Mr Realmasa is getting.<br /><br />OK, in the testing we've done the TH has done pretty well with lower X dimensions. The Ultima 4 does well with height. <br /><br />Heres what I would do. lets get a real soild baseline on what you have now. Then add the jackplate and test. Then compare the test to the baseline. One change at a time.<br /><br />Heres another thought -- how much time is on the HPDI? If you dont have much on it, the r's will pick up as it gets more time on it.

 

[realmasa]

Re: Turbo 1 vs. Turbo Lightning

Hi Dhadley,<br /><br />the ballistic prop i have is completely ruined, beyond repair. The boat itself is at the plastic work shop for repairs, i can't do any tests now, the approach you describes would be the most conclusive. So i have to buy a new prop(s) and go from there. The engine has ran about 120h.

 

[stevens]

Re: Turbo 1 vs. Turbo Lightning

Realmasa - I've paid between $130 for a 3-blade Stiletto to $250 for a 4-blade Turbo (all used but spotless). <br /><br />If you look on E-bay, right now there are several Turbo's up for sale, you'd just have to wait until one comes along that would fit your engine. Might take ages, might pop up tomorrow.<br /><br />There are also some good prices over at Boatownersworld.com ($275 for the Turbo 1, etc.). Dhadley might also know where you could get a deal. At least, if your boat is at the shop and the winter is coming, there's no rush...

 

[realmasa]

Re: Turbo 1 vs. Turbo Lightning

No there's no rush, i need the winter so i can save money, the repairs are going to be expensive. I searched ebay, they had a 24" pitch turbo four blade, the starting bid was 1$.

 

[stevens]

Re: Turbo 1 vs. Turbo Lightning

Too bad that the 24P would be too much for your engine, and the price will probably be a bit more than $1...<br /><br />Ebay is worth looking at though, and you can even set up an automated search that alerts you by e-mail every time a potential prop is listed, for example all propeller ads that contain the words turbo & yamaha. Worth a try.<br /><br />Dhadley or Walleyehed still haven't answered your question about the pitch on the second prop, i.e. the 4-blade in 20P or 22P? I am also curious to hear their recommendation, but feel quite certain I would have wanted to try the 22P, had it been me.

 

[realmasa]

Re: Turbo 1 vs. Turbo Lightning

What's up with the turbo prop guys? I've filled in the tech Quest form a week ago and two days ago i sent them an e-mail with the same info as in the tech quest. Is it just me, or have others experienced their 'unresponsiveness'?