Timing Damage

[GuitarMCP]

I would like to know what damage can occur from improper timing.

Here is my situation.
In June 2010 I brought my Force 125 to a repair shop because it was not firing #3 cylinder and only running about 3500 RPM. Repair shop agrees to fix it.
After numerous calls the shop reports that I need a coil. Then it was CDI, stator, trigger, the other coils, flywheel etc... Every electronic part replaced charged $1500 parts and $300 labor. After calling and calling I finally get the "It's done" signal in September (4 months). "It's running great" the mechanic says... "getting 43 MPH". I reluctantly pay up and take the boat to the water. Cranked and idled fine. Big smile on my face I idle away from the dock and past the no wake zone. Upon pushing the throttle forward the boat just bogged and sputtered achieving not more than 5 mph. So I angrily brought it back to the shop. A few days later I'm informed that the head was pulled and #3 piston is burnt with a hole in it. I drove to the shop to view it and it looked like it had been burnt for a long time. After tying to talk me into just buying another used motor the shop owner agreed to replace the piston and hone/bore the cylinder for free if I paid for the parts. This seemed to be the cheapest way out since I've already sank $1800 in to the motor that I can't get back. So I order piston, gasket kit, etc... give em and wait. 2 weeks I start calling and I'm told "We are still waiting on you to bring the piston". In a harsh tone I reminded him that I had already brought them. Another week and the excuse was "the head is still at the machine shop" then about two weeks and I finally get the "It's done and running great" routine. So I go to get the boat and the shop owner is smiling and telling me how great the motor runs. The mechanic says he took it out and it's running 45Mph and running strong. I check fuel and my tank is at 1/4 when I dropped it off full. So I believe him that he drove it and its running good. I go straight to the lake and dip the motor in the water and crank it. But the battery won't even turn it over. (clue #1). So I bring it home and charge the battery overnight. Next day I get to the lake and the motor cranks and idles fine. So I push the boat off the trailer and tie off to the dock. Put the life jacket on and start idling out past the no wake zone. Push the throttle forward and it just bogs down and sputters for about 3 seconds and shuts off. Now the motor won't even crank. I flip the trolling motor out and get back to the dock. Trailer the boat and go home. I tested the battery at Walmart and it's fine. So I pull the cover off the motor and start looking around. Turning the key the motor barely turns even though the battery is full charged. I pulled the plugs and checked for spark and all are sparking. I notice the engine turned over easier with one plug out so I pulled them all and could get the engine to crank several revolutions with each turn of the key. Immediately I suspect the new piston lost a ring. Also, I notice that the throttle linkage is not touching the throttle cam. At WOT the cam is barely opening the carbs.

I now suspect that pushing the throttle forward without the carbs opening caused the timing to advance without the corresponding increase in rpms. Could this cause a timing issue that could seize an engine or break a ring?
Is it possible the mechanic never adjusting the timing after completing the work?

Do you agree with me that the mechanic has never taking my boat to the water to test drive it after doing the work?

 

[beckspop]

Re: Timing Damage

Can you say Better Business Bureau... Out here there is a news guy one can call who will go and investigate, then if any ill practice is at hand he'll tell the whole region....

 

[jerryjerry05]

Re: Timing Damage

Lawyer!!!!! Sounds like you've been screwed from the first time he kissed you.
Yup call the BBB.The local news.A lawyer and start a claim in court.

If the idiots started with just a bad coil then moved to a complete ignition.
You should have RUN to someone else.You could have swapped the parts yourself.
I imagine they didn't do step 1 in diagnosing a problem.A simple compression test would have told the story.
Also damage to a piston and walls can happen in one trip out.But burning a hole was probably from not timing it after swapping the trigger.
You can still test the static timing to see how far it's off,even with the hole.
Good luck,fill out the profile.You might be close to someone who can help.J
It's amazing how many incompetent people are out there working on other peoples stuff and charging shop rates.And are still in business.J

 

[carholme]

Re: Timing Damage

GuitarMCP;

Hate to see it when someone gets screwed over like this. Did you at least ask them what happened to the removed parts of your electrical system. Technically/morally, these belong to you and there is probably nothing wrong with them. But one thing you can be sure of, the company that did your work will use them on other boats and those owners will probably be charged full price for them. It happens a lot and will more often in a bad economy. Sorry that you got stiffed.

carholme

 

[GuitarMCP]

Re: Timing Damage

Thanks for the replies.

I couldn't stand not knowing what the damage is so I pulled the head and discovered a wrist pin bearing sitting on top of the piston. A perfect hole is on the right side of the piston where the bearing came through. Also there is a very deep rut in the cylinder wall caused by the bearing as it came through to the top side of the piston.

This is the piston in #3 cylinder that was just replaced.
(See Pic's)

Is there any other cause of this other than poor workmanship?

 

[jason32038]

Re: Timing Damage

Poor workmanship my a**. Sounds like they didnt do a damn thing to it. Time to take some legal action! Most shops take pride in their work because they enjoy what they do but very few try to take advantage of people.

 

[GuitarMCP]

Re: Timing Damage

Filed a claim with BBB. Don't feel like I explained the problem good enough but we will see what happens. I'm asking for full refund or pay full repair cost at another shop.

I also called the shop owner and complained to him and let him know about the BBB claim. He scrambled a little to try and cover himself but in the end I at least got to call him and his mechanic liars directly. Hopefully he will want the BBB claim to be finalized with "successfully resolved with customer".

I am assuming this engine will now need another $1000 in repairs. To me, the damage to the cylinder wall look too bad to bore and I expect a new head and piston set is in order. Plus I still have the problem of the throttle not being set up properly... Also, the Tach wasn't reconnected and one of the head bolts put back in the motor was a replacement that wasn't even long enough to reach the cylinder block. How depressing....

If I can't get my money back or get repairs paid then I'll have to part out the motor. There is no way I can afford to put any more money into this machine or even buy another motor.

 

[Frank Acampora]

Re: Timing Damage

That is not a wrist pin bearing; it is a rod big end roller. One of 16 on each rod. Most probable cause for that damage was: Those rods are "Cracked Cap" technology. The big end caps can only be fitted to their respective rod and only in the same orientation that they were cracked. When replacing the rod big end cap, the rod and cap MUST be properly aligned. There are special ground flats on the sides to facilitate this. If the cap was not properly aligned OR if the bolts were not torqued to factory specs, bearings will blow out or the cap will come off and in either case, the bearings will migrate into the combustion chamber.

This damage CAN happen even with good quality work, but I would be willing to bet in this case it was poor workmanship by an untrained or uncaring mechanic.

Unfortunately, that block can not be bored. It might be able to be re-sleeved, but that is really expensive. At this point, a new (used) short block is your best bet since it is highly likely that the crankpin is also damaged and that is not repairable.

I think you will need to get some help and try to get all your money back but that can be difficult. Copy and print this reply and show it to the BBB. It will give you a bit more ammo.

 

[GuitarMCP]

Re: Timing Damage

Frank,

Thanks for that reply.

 

[GuitarMCP]

Re: Timing Damage

Update: Received a letter in the mail today from BBB identifying my claim number and a deadline of 22 Dec for the repair shop to respond.

I'll continue to post info this just in case anyone is curious to see what kind of results using the BBB will produce.

 

[jerryjerry05]

Re: Timing Damage

Keep us posted.On the net there are some used units.Craigslist too.J

 

[will941s]

Re: Timing Damage

If the BBB says something is being investigated....it's a done deal. I had to file a claim through them for a Jeep Dealership once (I said it was the tranny, they said no....$1,500 later, it was the tranny and they refused to refund), When I called the shop they make every effort to make me feel like a idiot, after the BBB got involved they were the nicest company in the world and were "Very pleased to issue a full refund". Your doing the right thing, also never hurts when you get it fixed to rub it in that their competiter is better than them and let EVERYONE in your local area know about your experience, and who fixed it the right way.

 

[Frank Acampora]

Re: Timing Damage

Sometimes it takes me a while--old age-- but my thought processes eventually get there: It occurred to me that if that is the only roller that has damaged the piston AND upon inspection, all the other rollers are in place on the big end of the rod, then that is definitely poor workmanship.

There are 16 rollers on the big end of the con rod. Because it is so easy to lose one, I always count them during disassembly AND during assembly. It is ESPECIALLY easy to lose one while replacing a piston without disassembling the engine block. Look on the case at the split and look at the block mounting bolts and nuts. If they have not been disturbed then it is a certainty that the mechanic replaced the piston without disassembling the block. Or look at the six rear shroud bolts. If they have not been disturbed, then the rear shroud was not removed to access the six block stud nuts. Proves that the engine was repaired without disassembly.

When replacing a piston this way it is extremely easy to drop a roller into the crankcase. If not counted, and accounted for, this roller will make its way into the combustion chamber upon running the engine. THERE IS NO EXCUSE FOR THIS DAMAGE! It is the worst negligence and workmanship.

If you inspect the rod through the reed opening and see no damage to the big end, then this is quite probably what happened--And yes, you have an excellent argument to collect damages. Were I you, I would get someone reputable to look at the engine -- Doesn't need to be a boat mechanic-- Do you have an auto mechanic you trust? Show him this reply and he will most likely know know what to do. Just have him write a letter or note with the findings. Again, even if the crank is not damaged, that block will at least need to be resleeved and that costs around 400 bucks--if you can find someone to do it. See my personal message to you.