Tilt Trim issue - 1994 Force 120

[jpwilly]

EDIT: There is an issue with my Trim Cylinder. The tilt works great moves the motor up and down as it should but bottoms out on the trim ram. The ram sticking out but won't retract.

I need help don't know where to start...I posted pictures below.

 

[MickLovin]

Re: Tilt Trim issue - 1994 Force 120


Is this the trim ram you are referring to, this ram is your trim ram and the other is your tilt ram which is the skinny one, the tilt ram when going up comes into play after the trim ram slowly trims up enough for the tilt ram and same when it comes down the tilt ram brings it down and the TRIM ram takes over and slowly trims, I had a problem with my trim ram and found it was loose on the shaft and missing the stainless steel plate that it hits when trimming the motor, it was actually coming down too far. The valve body is on the pump not near the trim ram. I am unsure with the trim/tilt solenoids on your Force as I have an old motor with just an up down switch, but if it isn't hitting its lower level, there may be a limit type switch that it isn't engaging which would stop your pump when bottomed, as I say I am not sure with this, also you need to check to see if that trim ram is working if it is seized or leaking and not reaching the mark you will have trim porblems.

 

[jpwilly]

Re: Tilt Trim issue - 1994 Force 120

Thanks for the reply. I've checked the trim ram doesn't seem to move in just the tilt cylinder, that's what the motor is bottoming out on when the tilt comes down. Here's a picture of it as far down as it will go:

I searched and found this diagram:

 

[jpwilly]

Re: Tilt Trim issue - 1994 Force 120

Here's a picture with the motor off of the trim ram. This is the position it seems to be stuck in:

 

[pnwboat]

Re: Tilt Trim issue - 1994 Force 120

Looking at the picture, is there a bolt missing off the trim cylinder cover? There should be 5 bolts that hold the cover on (#25 in the diagram).

 

[Frank Acampora]

Re: Tilt Trim issue - 1994 Force 120

I have had that happen on a number of my systems. The trim cylinder does get stuck at full extension. You can try giving it a few shots with a hammer to loosen it but even if it does, the problem will return. Taking off the cap and cleaning the piston/replacing the seals and O rings is not an option because you will undoubtably break a couple of the bolts.

You can try taking the pump apart and checking to see if the check valves are working properly. A bad check valve or a stuck shuttle inside the pump will also cause the trim ram to not retract.

 

[jpwilly]

Re: Tilt Trim issue - 1994 Force 120

pwnboat: Holy crap you're right! Both the lower bolt heads are missing...someone must have tried to fix the Trim and sheered them off. Now what??

Just looked up a rebuilt kit on ebay $25 http://www.ebay.com/itm/Rebuild-kit..._Accessories_Gear&hash=item338470619f&vxp=mtr

 

[pnwboat]

Re: Tilt Trim issue - 1994 Force 120

Broken bolts will have to be removed and replaced. There may be enough of the bolts sticking out once you get the cover off to grab with some vice-grips or something like that. Use plenty of WD-40, PB Blaster etc and possibly some heat from a propane torch. Like Frank says, you may end up breaking more bolts off, so use caution.

That re-build kit will fix any "leak down" issues caused by bad "O" rings in the Tilt or Trim cylinder. It won't fix any leak down issues cause by bad seals in the valve body which is mounted to the bottom of the Trim/Tilt motor. If you are going to take the Trim cylinder apart, then it may be a good idea to replace the seals.

If you are going to do like Frank suggested, give it a few shots with the hammer to get it to go down and not take the cylinder apart, I think I would just remove the broken bolts (drill them out), replace them and let it go. Or at least see if it works OK and wait before ordering anything.

CAUTION!...If you can raise the motor up high enough, you might have enough room to work on the Trim cylinder. Be aware that you have support the motor in the raised position. As soon as you release the pressure from the Trim cylinder, it releases the pressure from the whole system and the motor will drop down. You don't want to be underneath the motor if that happens.

 

[Jiggz]

Re: Tilt Trim issue - 1994 Force 120

I believe with the missing bolts, the top cover tends to get "cocked" thus preventing the shaft from retracting. So the first step of troubleshooting is to replace the broken bolts after removing the left over studs. While at it you might as well clean it up and replace o-rings as required. And then test again.

 

[jpwilly]

Re: Tilt Trim issue - 1994 Force 120

Yes I can get the motor all the way up. I'll find a way to support it (any ideas?) and then get to work on the Trim cover. I'll probably dissemble and see what I need. Do you think ACE hardware carry these type of bolts? Anyone know the tq required when I reassemble?

 

[Frank Acampora]

Re: Tilt Trim issue - 1994 Force 120

No, Ace will not carry them. Neither will Home Depot or Lowes. They are high strength, stainless, 12 point, aircraft type bolts, 1/4 X 20. Try Fastenal , Graingers, or McMasters-Carr.

You are in for a miserable job. Were it my unit, I would look for a relatively cheap used system and rebuild the one on the engine at my leisure. AND--Even replacing the system will be a miserable job. The mounting bars (#7 and #19) are most likely corroded in solid making removal a real PIA.

Of all the jobs on a Chrysler or early Force engine, this is the one I hate the most--and --If someone came to me asking to replace one, I might just refuse. No reasonable amount of money is worth the time and aggravation.

 

[jpwilly]

Re: Tilt Trim issue - 1994 Force 120

No, Ace will not carry them. Neither will Home Depot or Lowes. They are high strength, stainless, 12 point, aircraft type bolts, 1/4 X 20. Try Fastenal , Graingers, or McMasters-Carr.

You are in for a miserable job. Were it my unit, I would look for a relatively cheap used system and rebuild the one on the engine at my leisure. AND--Even replacing the system will be a miserable job. The mounting bars (#7 and #19) are most likely corroded in solid making removal a real PIA.

Of all the jobs on a Chrysler or early Force engine, this is the one I hate the most--and --If someone came to me asking to replace one, I might just refuse. No reasonable amount of money is worth the time and aggravation.

:faint2: Nice looks like I won the lotto with this boat!

 

[pnwboat]

Re: Tilt Trim issue - 1994 Force 120

A good quality short step ladder placed under the end of lower unit, or anything similar will work. You get the general idea. Anything to keep the lower end from dropping down.

Call around to the various Hardware stores. I've used some stainless Allen head fasteners from Ace that fit. I've never had to remove them so I don't know how they'll stand up the long run.

Standard torque value for 1/4 X 20 stainless steel bolt dry, no lubricant is 75 INCH pounds, or 6.25 FOOT pounds.

There is something about the stainless steel fasteners and the aluminum alloy or what ever it is that they used in the Force motors that creates the worst type of corrosion that I've ever seen. When it happens, it's almost like the fasteners are welded to the aluminum. Anyways, it takes patience and liberal amounts of PB Blaster, WD-40 etc, etc, to get them apart. If you don't have any corrosion, then count your blessings.

 

[MickLovin]

Re: Tilt Trim issue - 1994 Force 120

No, Ace will not carry them. Neither will Home Depot or Lowes. They are high strength, stainless, 12 point, aircraft type bolts, 1/4 X 20. Try Fastenal , Graingers, or McMasters-Carr.

You are in for a miserable job. Were it my unit, I would look for a relatively cheap used system and rebuild the one on the engine at my leisure. AND--Even replacing the system will be a miserable job. The mounting bars (#7 and #19) are most likely corroded in solid making removal a real PIA.

Of all the jobs on a Chrysler or early Force engine, this is the one I hate the most--and --If someone came to me asking to replace one, I might just refuse. No reasonable amount of money is worth the time and aggravation.

Thank goodness mine wasn't my ram. Good luck with it jp, hope it works out, just a quick question to Frank though, why on earth did they use a bolt with such a head on it and how can you get the tool to do the bolts. I already have a PIA just thinking about removing that ram let alone having to do it . Not that I need the tool, but is it still available?

 

[Frank Acampora]

Re: Tilt Trim issue - 1994 Force 120

12 point bolts are usually aircraft grade and on a cylinder that reaches 2000 PSI they are necessary. Up here, Sears and most other tool companies sell 12 point sockets. They are common and a standard tool. They are also used for the connecting rod bolts. 1/4 inch drive, 1/4 inch socket is the correct tool.

 

[MickLovin]

Re: Tilt Trim issue - 1994 Force 120

Thanks Franks I will look into this I like to have all the tools, I am an electrician after all, don't want to make things harder

 

[jpwilly]

Re: Tilt Trim issue - 1994 Force 120

UPDATE: I propped up the lower on a steel folding chair. The motor isn't that heavy (when it's tilted up). Top 3 screws came out like they should have. The bottom two were sheered off and was correctly assumed they were corroded / welded in.

The trim cylinder and cover are in fine shape. Once off and straightened out the assembly and it worked in and out by hand. I cleaned and placed parts in a clean plastic bag

I didn't waste time with easy outs etc and just went right to drilling out the stuck screws. First I cut them off flush, center punched, and drill them out with ever increasing sizes of titanium bits. One cleaned up perfect and the old screw bits fell out. The other I'm going to run a tap into to clean up. I purchased a pump rebuilt kit for (1983-1992) on Ebay with new seals and SS bolts included for $25. The trim seals and bolts will fit the 93-94 but the tilt seals won't which is fine by me as I'm not tearing all of those down. For the price of this kit I figure it's worth it just for sourcing the bolts and trim seals. When I get it put back together I'll let you know how it turns out.

What oil should be used on this trim system? What is the best way to refill and re-prime the hydraulic system?? I'm thinking of filling the trim cylinder with oil when I reassemble to help with re filling and bleeding the system.

 

[pnwboat]

Re: Tilt Trim issue - 1994 Force 120

The Kit will fulfill your needs just fine at a reasonable cost considering they're marine parts. That's the beauty of these older Force/Chrysler motors. If you're a Do It yourself'er, boating is a little more affordable.

You can pre-fill the trim cylinder, but it's not absolutely necessary. Just make sure you coat everything with what ever fluid you're going to use before assembly. I use non-detergent straight 30 weight oil from the local Farm Supply store. Seems to work just fine. Maybe some of the other folks can chime in on the fluid.

 

[Frank Acampora]

Re: Tilt Trim issue - 1994 Force 120

You can fill the trim cylinder with oil at assembly and it will require less being added to the reservoir when you bleed the system. The tilt/trim system is self bleeding. All you need to do is add oil to the reservoir and activate the up button. It will rise part way and stop because it is out of oil. Add more to the reservoir, lower then raise again. Do this until the system will rise to its full limit. Cycle the system from full up to full down a couple of times and all air will be bled from the cylinders. Top off the reservoir if necessary.

If existing oil is almost clear, then refill using hydraulic oil. If it is motor oil colored, use straight 30 weight motor oil. If it is red in color use transmission fluid.

Glad you had good luck getting the cap off and the broken screws out.

 

[Jiggz]

Re: Tilt Trim issue - 1994 Force 120

For my T/T system I used the power steering and trim fluid from Quicksilver. It cost around $10 a quart.