thinking of getting a bigger boat

[EJ392]

i love my 20 foot glasply to death, but, i would love something bigger, more comfortable and a little newer... and something i could stay on for a few weeks at a time- whether live-aboard or out cruising. ive seen alot of older fiberforms and (i cant believe im saying this) bayliners around 26-28 feet on trailers for under 6000$.

now, 6 months ago, if you asked me if id ever consider a bayliner, id say no way in hell... however if you asked me why, i would say, ive heard from my buddies that they are crap. while i personally have no experiance with anything bayliner under 35 feet, it seems like people either love em or hate em. im eyeballing a 28 foot bayliner bounty or victoria, or a fiberform executive 28 (basically the same boat- bayliner stole the design)... i guess im looking for something with a flybridge, big deck, enough room to take 4 or 5 guys fishing, and a head/shower for the girls, and a galley

what do you guys think about bayliners/fiberforms? are they as bad as people say they are? how bad can they be?

im seeing these boats an affordable way into a larger boat, im aware that a bayliner cant compete with a true sport fishing boat, and is nowhere as rugged and heavy duty as my glasply, but, the overall function of a larger boat seems to outweigh the purpose of a smaller boat...

id love to hear some input on this idea. ive heard that those bayliners tend to come apart at the deck/hull seam, and the glass is thin, making them light, and that they arent very seaworthy, i know the older fiberforms are heavier boats (nowhere near as heavy as a tolly, glasply, uniflite, ect) and definatley heavier than the bayliner... i just dont know anything about these boats. i know way more about yachts and sport fishing boats...

 

[Silly Seville]

Re: thinking of getting a bigger boat

Welcome to iboats!

If you are talking about living aboard on big water, and going offshore a considerable distance; I would avoid a lightweight hull and single screw at all costs.
And be reminded of one very important thing...there is a reason you can buy "so much boat" for "so little money." Consider the consequences.

 

[EJ392]

Re: thinking of getting a bigger boat

i forgot to mention/clarify... i live in the san juan islands in washington state. while it can get nasty here, its usually calm and smooth. these are sheltered waters, its like a giant lake with tides and islands....definatley no open ocean, big water, offshore fishing, except on the very rare occasion i go out to the coast.

Silly Seville, you say consider the consequences... while i know what makes a quality boat, and i know what boats are worth owning, i do not know why other boats arent worth it...

 

[Slow Ride]

Re: thinking of getting a bigger boat

Here is another man's two cents. Living on a 28 bayliner for more than a couple of days will be tough at best. Been there done that! Unless you are in a true sport fisher i.e., Bertam, Hatteras, etc. (SP) you will find that the quarters are just two cramped. I have a 31 fountain with a cutty. Its fun to zip over to another city and dock at the marine and get a hotel room but I never stay on the boat. As for the quality of Bayliner, I have no personal experience but I will say this, "there are a lot of them on the water that are decades old," and that has to mean something. Right? My last comment is to be very sure you're ready to tackle a boat of this size with your wallet. The cost of operating this new toy will go way up. I agree with Silly Seville about the dual motors on a boat of this size. Yes it will run with one but it will be far more stable and dependable with two, not to mention the life of the motor is greatly reduced on big boats with one engine because they are often running at the top of their RPM range. That said, a boat of this size will get something on the order of 1.5-4.5 MPG! Inboards get better MPG. As a reference point, my 31 fountain with twin yammy 200 ox66 engines gets 1.3 at wide open throttle and 1.9 in the sweet spot at 38 RPMs. If you're like most of us and you put a few miles on your boat, your operating cost will more than double from your current 20 footer. On the up side, you have room for several friends to help pay for fuel!

I don't mean to rain on your parade but I was completely blindsided by this situation. I had a 24 foot champion bay boat (which I should have kept) that I took all over the Gulf coast of TX. I could fish all day on 30-40 gallons of gas trolling for Mahi and Sails. The same trip in the fountain is 75-100 gallons depending on sea state. I wish you the best but you sound a lot like me, looking for a good inexpensive boat, i.e. $6000 for a 28 footer. If you?re splitting hairs over the purchase price you really need to do some research and be sure you can afford to use the thing without breaking the family budget, thus taking all the fun out of it!

 

[Silly Seville]

Re: thinking of getting a bigger boat

Silly Seville, you say consider the consequences... while i know what makes a quality boat, and i know what boats are worth owning, i do not know why other boats arent worth it...

Slow Ride summed it up perfectly here...If you?re splitting hairs over the purchase price you really need to do some research and be sure you can afford to use the thing without breaking the family budget

Here is my longer explanation...

I think most intelligent folks would agree that it takes a certain amount of money to buy a certain level of quality. By consequences, I meant both safety and financial responsibility. I believe you qualified the "safety" aspect of it in your response. I will speak to the economics of it. The act of spending money to save money is false economy if there is no return on your investment. For example: If you buy a boat that commands a fair market price of $10k in perfect running order, then it is reasonable to assume that one might be able to sell it immediately for the same price. However, let's say that after owning that $10k boat for a month, you experience catastrophic engine and outdrive failure and must replace those items at your expense; to the tune of $7k. Now you have "invested" $17k into a boat that you cannot reasonably expect to sell for $17k. The market dictates that it is still a $10k boat because a potential buyer expects it to be in running condition for that price. In this instance, your purchase was not an investment, rather a loss. The buyer will get a new engine and outdrive on your dime. Happens all of the time, just look here on the forums for evidence of that. The question is, can you afford to learn the hard way? I myself have gone through the above scenario, and it's an expensive lesson in "you get what you pay for." I hope this helps you in your decision making process.

 

[EJ392]

Re: thinking of getting a bigger boat

yeah, my little glasply, with a 470 mercruiser, ive cruised all weekend on 70 gallons of fuel, and fished 3 days in a derby on a full tank (50 gallons), plus had enough to go out for 3 more afternoons. i figure it burns about 4 gallons an hour at 3000rpm, or close to that. but damn, i cant take more than 2 other people and minimal gear... the deck gets over crowded, it gets cluttered... it just gets uncomfortable and unsafe...

ive lived on a 32 foot commercial boat for 5 months, by myself, and, the bayliner 28 definatley has way more interior space than that boat did.... hell, i am only 24, and have no obligations beyond my dog. plus i work as a boat mechanic/boat builder, so maintaince costs are alot lower for me...

interesting point about dual engines vs single engine.... ive been wondering about that myself.... its not like im going to be going after dorado or marlin... here in in the pacific north west, if you are going to be trolling for salmon, all the sport boats run a kicker, usually 8hp for boats up to 23 feet, and 15hp beyond that, so what ive been trying to figure out, is whether it is better to have a pair of larger engines, or to get a boat with a single screw, and bolt on a 10-25hp kicker for trolling. unless its powered by outboards, all of the sportboats run a single main engine, and a kicker.

either way, i will have two engines.... and speed isnt really that important. while i want something that can get out of its own way, and get home in a hurry, or haul *** in a derby, i have no reason to run full throttle. maybe i am being nieve? im not sure... like i said, 2 main engines just seem like twice the cost... besides, you have to pay to go fast, id rather take 8 hours to get where im going and use less fuel than haul *** and put a dent in my wallet...

you never want to get above 6kts when trolling for salmon anyhow, so, with dual engines, it seems like alot more fuel consumption, higher maintaince costs, and no room on the transom for a trolling motor. as long as i stay in the islands, im never going to be more than 5 miles from land, most of the time, and less than 1/4 a mile if im fishing...

is the single engine vs dual engine issue because of saftey or to reduce wear and tear on the engines? like i said, a kicker is going to get bolted on anyhow.... not trying to argue with anybody or anything, those are just my thoughts on the matter (for conversations sake)



Silly,

ok yeah, i get what you mean... basic economics... my 1978 glasply cost me 700$, i fixed it up, got the engine running flawlessly (has 229 hours on it), and turned 4500$ down 2x because it wasnt fixed to its full potential...once its said and done, ill sell it for 6000$ and make 4000$ profit, but thats because glasply is a high quality boat that holds its value. if i can get a boat for the right price, than, to me, it seems economical to get it fixed up to its greatest possible condition and make profit on it.... flipping boats is a hobby of mine... if i can get a boat for 5000$ scrub the oil out of the bilge, paint the engine, buff the hull, change out the impellor, and sell it for 6500... then its worth it to me.

if you pollish a turd well enough you can fool even the most savy man into thinking its a diamond.

 

[smokeonthewater]

Re: thinking of getting a bigger boat

the mpg numbers would be more like .5-1.5 mpg and I/O will do better than inboard

 

[Philster]

Re: thinking of getting a bigger boat

slow ride summed it up perfectly here...if you’re splitting hairs over the purchase price you really need to do some research and be sure you can afford to use the thing without breaking the family budget

here is my longer explanation...

I think most intelligent folks would agree that it takes a certain amount of money to buy a certain level of quality. By consequences, i meant both safety and financial responsibility. I believe you qualified the "safety" aspect of it in your response. I will speak to the economics of it. The act of spending money to save money is false economy if there is no return on your investment. For example: If you buy a boat that commands a fair market price of $10k in perfect running order, then it is reasonable to assume that one might be able to sell it immediately for the same price. However, let's say that after owning that $10k boat for a month, you experience catastrophic engine and outdrive failure and must replace those items at your expense; to the tune of $7k. Now you have "invested" $17k into a boat that you cannot reasonably expect to sell for $17k. The market dictates that it is still a $10k boat because a potential buyer expects it to be in running condition for that price. In this instance, your purchase was not an investment, rather a loss. The buyer will get a new engine and outdrive on your dime. Happens all of the time, just look here on the forums for evidence of that. The question is, can you afford to learn the hard way? I myself have gone through the above scenario, and it's an expensive lesson in "you get what you pay for." i hope this helps you in your decision making process.

Amen to that.

 

[Greg Mrozinski]

Re: thinking of getting a bigger boat

I agree with what Silly said but heck you can say that about any boat. Right?? Bayliners are built to be a good value. From my personal experience and friends that have owned them, Bayliner has made good quality hulls and caps. They have mostly used Mercrusier drive trains. No difference there then with most other boats. Where they tend not to shine is in fit and finish conponents and the extras that companies like Sea Ray, Doral and Four Winns puts in their boats. As long as you know that going in then great. I don't think a Bayliner will sink any faster than another boat but your cabinet handles may break off a lot quicker, your doors made out of starboard may warp, your bow rail is screwed together rather than welded, etc.

The other thing that Bayliner does with their 28' Cierras/Command bridges is they only install one engine, usually a 7.4L or 8.1L. Depending on wether it is carburated or injected you will burn somewhere between 10-13 gal/hr at cruise.

Like with any boat purchase you just have to throughly check it out before pulling the trigger. Good luck.

 

[Slow Ride]

Re: thinking of getting a bigger boat

EJ392,

Like I said, I don't want to hurt your exciting boat buying experience. It truly is a fun time in a young man's life! The issue of two engines has a lot to do with safety but you have stated that you will be no more than 5 miles from shore with a kicker......and a radio that can reach the beach or local coast guard just in case, right? Yes, having two engines does mean twice the maintenance costs, no way around it. And, they certainly cost more than a kicker! On the other hand you will have some up sides. If the boat was designed to run with only one engine the following statement may not be true....so take that into consideration. However, a large boat on plane at cruising speed uses about the same and sometimes less fuel with two engines! If the boat is designed for two, this is a certainty. My boat won't even get on plane with only one engine, but that’s a different story. The issue of trolling with dual engines is a nonissue. Simply turn one of them off.....problem solved! I do it all the time. A six cylinder engine at idle will burn about 1 gallon per hour. As you move up in trolling speed obviously the consumption rate increases. Here in the Gulf of Mexico the sea state is usually something like 2-3 ft. with about a 6 second period. That is considered choppy by most but is the norm here on the middle Texas coast. That being said, the biggest advantage to having two engines is stability. Think about this..... you know how when you're running along at a good speed and all is fine, and then you run into the back (or front) of a swell or wave and the boat falls off plane. Then you have to get in the throttle to power over the swell, then back off, then back on, then back off, etc., etc..... This happens when running and when trolling, right? Well, with two engines this is going to be way less of a problem because you are going to have roughly twice the prop in the water. A 14" prop at 3800 RPM is still less stable than two 13" props at considerably less RPMs. It just makes everything easier to manage.

As for speed, yes two will give you some advantage but not really that much. If your boat runs 38mph with one big inboard, it may run 45 with two based on my personal experience. So, don't let me or anyone else sway your purchase based on speed, again, it’s a nonissue as far as I'm concerned.

I suppose the best example I can think of is the V6 vs. V8 argument people have about vehicles. Everyone says the V6 gets better gas mileage and they do....... very little bit better. The tradeoff is that the vehicle lacks in torque and HP and feels sluggish. If you buy a sports car that offers both and you opt for the V6, it’s only a matter of time before you're wishing you had the V8 and your down at the auto parts store looking for performance parts to try and regain what you left off the first time!

And finally, yes, if you have two engines they will last longer before you need a rebuild. It's common since. If you run one engine at 4000RPMs to achieve cruising speed it will die before two engines at 3200 RPMs almost every time. But, there is the upfront cost to consider............ decisions, decisions...............have fun!

 

[EJ392]

Re: thinking of getting a bigger boat

you guys make good points.

ive owned many boats over the years, but, this is the first time im going for size.

http://seattle.craigslist.org/est/boa/2763999713.html

check that boat out. i called the guy and he said he just needs to pay off the marina for back-rent, and his wife wants it gone... im going to make him an offer...

i guess i am just cautious of twin engines because of all the headaches my merc 470 has given me... it runs flawlessly now... but, if i had to go through what i had to deal with twice, i would have jumped off a cliff... im figurin that it would be best to sell my glasply while the engine is in running condition and let the next guy deal with the next round of stress and headaches.hell i figure i can get 5000$ for it, the engine only has 229 origional hours... not too shaby for a 1978.

makes a helluva lot more sence to buy a boat under 10,000$ and live on it than it does to rent a house for 850$ a month and pay all the utilities and what not... at the end of the year, you own the boat, but you have nothing to show for the place your renting...

 

[oops!]

Re: thinking of getting a bigger boat

some really good responses here....

just a quicky......there is no genny on the 32.....for trips off the dock for a few days ...you are gonna need one. but being in the biz...you can usually get your hands on one.

also.....as a rule of thumb....a 27 is the largest single screw in the crusier class that you want to be in.....remember ,,, your docking in current and wind. you will need the twins for manoeuvrability.

 

[EJ392]

Re: thinking of getting a bigger boat

Well guys....

i re-read through this entire conversation, and the points you guys made are making alot more sence.

while ive worked on a countless number of boats with twin engines, ive never fished or personally opperated a vessel with twins, so, this is uncharted territory for me... i grew up fishing on ospreys, seasports, glasplys, and the occasional trophy, so all i know is a single main and a kicker...

ive owned enough boats to know what makes a boat solid, but, the step up from 20 feet to 30 feet is like going from flying a cessna to walking on the moon.....

 

[boatnut74]

Re: thinking of getting a bigger boat

Any chance you would be able to water test the 32' with twins to see if you like it? I think it's always a good idea to test a boat out before you buy it. If you can take it for the water test you can see how it handles with the twins to see if you like it. I see no reason why you wouldn't be able to mount a kicker on the transom as well.

 

[JoLin]

Re: thinking of getting a bigger boat

also.....as a rule of thumb....a 27 is the largest single screw in the crusier class that you want to be in.....remember ,,, your docking in current and wind. you will need the twins for manoeuvrability.

I'll ditto that, and not only from a maneuverability standpoint. Once you get into the class of boat that has more than an 8.5' beam, you really need twins to move the thing along. Though it's only happened about twice, there have been times I wished I had twin V-8's instead of my sixes. I think you'd regret trying to get away with a single screw in that size boat.

My .02

 

[Philster]

Re: thinking of getting a bigger boat

Some insight into cost:

I've been in discussions with people where they have become indignant over the amount of money spent on boating, as if it's any of their business. When you go up to 30' and twins, you might even find you and your family getting indignant with each other over all the costs. How dare you spend all this on a boat.

If you are all on the same page and write down your goals as you agree to them, you might have more $ for a big boat with twins. For example, some of the people that get hostile with me over how much boating costs are spending more money per year on family vacations that the kids aren't crazy about, and these vacations are spent fighting with families and relatives and compromising all the fun.

So, we take a vacation every weekend, on our boat. No airports, lost luggage and fighting with long lines in a concrete jungle for us. Once we came up with goals and looked at the ludicrous am't of money some of these generic vacations cost, we realized that the money we spent on boating was much better spent.

And for my neighbors, they did the same thing: Sat down and decided that getting a 27' cruiser was better than some of the other crap they were doing. They love it... and now they want 32 feet or more with twin engines!

Go big or go home! Easy for us to spend your money -- right?

 

[Slow Ride]

Re: thinking of getting a bigger boat

Uhhh someone mentioned test ride.......? Absolutely! Anyone who buys a boat that is anything more than a 14 foot Jon Boat without a sea trial is asking for trouble. Even if you decide to skip out on the twin engines, you need to put the boat in the water and run if good and hard to shake out the problems!

 

[Slow Ride]

Re: thinking of getting a bigger boat

Oops...."if" should be "it". What can I say, I grew up in Louisiana and went to school there!