They should put wing nuts on these carburators!!

[garyN]

If you are having problems with your small yamaha outboard running badly and needing the carb cleaned - over and over again, please let me know so I can try to get the company to really pay attention.

I continue to have problems every 60 days and called 5 repairs shops in San Diego today - every one told me "they had a rack full of these engines, gunked up". I cannot understand how the company is not addressing this - and want to put them on real notice that they need to fix it - supply advice and help us enjoy our yamaha powered boats. They get JD powers awards for satisfaction, but I (and I think many other small 4 stroke owners are far from satisfied.

Anyhow, I understand the company is suggesting the fix is some water separator - but water is not my problem. I think I know that the oil separator is venting into the carb, and when it is lowered down to run that dirt (which is what the oil is designed to collect) then is washed by the gas into the carb. This is a design flaw they can fix - if they will admit it.

Please let me know if you have this problem and I will add you to my formal letter to Yamaha. I want them to simply step up and do the right thing for those of us who bought what was supposed to be "the Best".

 

[matt2002]

Re: They should put wing nuts on these carburators!!

What does this "oil seperator " supposed to do again ?

 

[rodbolt]

Re: They should put wing nuts on these carburators!!

mmmmmm
how is nasty fuel a yamaha issue?
we are fighting this new fuel blend here in NC very hard.
with the ethanol we see fuel go bad in as little as 4 weeks.
the oil vapors you see collecting are normal blowby gasses that all 4 strokes make.
the crankcase has to be vented someplace and the vapors collected and reburned.
on cars we used a PCV setup on small engines its siply vented into the airbox.
there isnt an air filter as most boaters dont boat in dusty conditions.if your conditions are that dusty please double check your depth finder and GPS position.
the airbox is simply to aide in noise reduction and to aide in vapor collection from the crankcase.
but it wont clog internal passages only incoming trashy fuel can clog the internal passages.
biggest thing we are seeing here is the old fuel residues are being dissolved and fed throughout the fuel system, carbs and injected engines are suffering equally.

 

[Guest]

Re: They should put wing nuts on these carburators!!

Gary:

I have a 50HP 4-stroke. My mechanic sees more of my boat than I do. I just talked to Yamaha (again) and it was like talking to a brick wall! They have no answers and really don't seem to give a d***. This is the last Yamaha I ever own. Companies with attitudes should be avoided!

 

[garyN]

Re: They should put wing nuts on these carburators!!

Rodbolt, I want to let you know that I have great respect for you and your continued services to all who neex/want help. I am not fighting with you - BUT is certainly is a Yamaha problem when the product they engineer and market as "the best 9.9 in the world" cannot operate in the normal fuel environment we all have. My car, truck, generator, chain saw, lawnmower, jet ski, and two strokes all run with the stuff I buy at the pump. Why not my Yamaha outboard. What we all need is a fix (not blame), either a mechanical fix (carb redesign), chemical fix (additive) or something to put the pleasure and value back in these products. I place my life in the hands of my outboard - and with this one I can turn it off running fine, and then 10 minutes latter have it not start or run properly! Please help us find a solution. I did a survey of the shops and this is so common to Yamaha it is hard to understand. Also, the guys who open these carbs up to work on them tell me they find "brown corrosive type gunk, clogging the really small passages". One boat rental operation her had 10 of these on the rental boats- and even with regular use were having to service the carbs every 60 days. That is not acceptable. If it were a car it would be recalled. Can you offer any specific steps that can help address this? I didn't buy a Yamaha to have to become a mechanic. I have nothing against Yamaha, I bought into the marketing hype - but they need to step up to the plate here and help us (and themselves). I am convinced that the engine is fouling itself with internal dirt - how, maybe from the oil. When tilted up I see a small mixture of oil and gas drip from the carb, when I put it down to run I think this washes into the carb- then clogs the passages. My theory only, but it explains the problem. I am going to take it off myself this week (with a certified helper) and really evalute the internal problem. You see, I cannot even sell this engine with a clear conscience. I would never buy one again - but would change that position if the company would issue a service bulletin and tell us what to do.
Just saying "bad gas" isn't cutting it - it needs to be built to work in the real world. For example, if I buy a camping stove, they tell me it clogs and give me a tool to clean it (that is good engineering), why is Yamaha not jumping on this in a professional way? Your help is great - but what would you do if this were yours? Would you really expect to dismantle the carb every couple of months? You have the ability to help get Yamaha to "respond" - let us all know what happens when you "an insider" call them and suggest this problem needs a solution.

Thanks

 

[OldePharte]

Re: They should put wing nuts on these carburators!!

I have a '92 225HP Yamaha and have to have the carbs "rebuilt"/cleaned out every three years. I can not disconnect the fuel line so I can't run it dry for winter layup. I do use Stabil prior to the layup.

According to my mechanic, some models have a history of carb gumming just to the nature of their design; they don't drain.

Our on-lake gas doesn't have ethanol.

My neighbor has a 115 HP Merc, uses E-10 street gas, fuel line also "hard-wired", but his hasn't had one problem in 8 years.

Once the carbs have been cleaned the sucker runs like a champ. This is the only problem that I have ever had.

 

[rodbolt]

Re: They should put wing nuts on these carburators!!

wow, at least Arnie gets a bit of warrenty even though each time he leaves its running well and he has water tested it.
maybe I should also call BRP as this new fuel blend just took out a pair of 175 evinrudes,it took out my personal 175 E-tec the shop truck,the secretaries volkswagon and my friend at outer banks transit had to be towed in last week with his new 225 Honda.
trust me, its not a manufacturer issue its our stupid current crop of white house monkies.
ethanol belongs in my tumbler with Ice, not in my gasoline.
buy decent liqour and you dont need to mix it.
but trust me,merc volvo,BRP,Yamaha and a host of others are suffereing melted orings,clogged filters,clogged draw tubes and melted plastic draw tubes and a host of other issues.
so far most the techs I stay in touch with say hold on,will take about a year to finally get the bugs out of the fuel tank and lines.
in the meantime stand by for more as any concentration over 10% creates issues with rubber diaphrams,orings and fuel lines.
this stuff is Alcohol RESISTANT,not PROOF.

try do do a fuel sample, I tested one that had way more than the allowed 10%.
yes this is some nasty stuff, however Yamaha nor Honda makes the gasoline we try to use.
that brown corrosive goo is NOT coming from your motor, its your gasoline.

 

[TinCocodrie]

Re: They should put wing nuts on these carburators!!

just got new Trailer Boat magazine
article on page 20
Sta-Bil Marine Formula Ethanol Treatment seems to help
anyone ever tried this stuff
I have two 98 saltwater 150's and have been told stations in south La must use the new fuel before the end of this year
installing the Yamaha 10 micron filters this weekend and will hope for the best

 

[Silvertip]

Re: They should put wing nuts on these carburators!!

It is absolutely amazing that you folks out east can't seem to get along with ethanol blended fuel. Geez people, we've been using it in the midwest since 1997 and my new Suzy is doing nicely on it as have all my boats before it, as have my cars, my trucks, weed whips, mowers, generator (hasn't been exercised in 9 months and started on the second pull). Use SeaFoam or Stabil in every tank, run a water separating fuel filter and go boating. I wish they would make an engine that ran on E85 -- I'd have one in a heartbeat. Maybe I should pick one up in Brazil. Up here in corn country E85 is 65 cents cheaper than regular and yes, it does pay to use it even though economy is less.

Rodbolt -- check you PM.

 

[MnRiverman]

Re: They should put wing nuts on these carburators!!

It is absolutely amazing that you folks out east can't seem to get along with ethanol blended fuel. Geez people, we've been using it in the midwest since 1997 and my new Suzy is doing nicely on it as have all my boats before it, as have my cars, my trucks, weed whips, mowers, generator (hasn't been exercised in 9 months and started on the second pull). Use SeaFoam or Stabil in every tank, run a water separating fuel filter and go boating. I wish they would make an engine that ran on E85 -- I'd have one in a heartbeat. Maybe I should pick one up in Brazil. Up here in corn country E85 is 65 cents cheaper than regular and yes, it does pay to use it even though economy is less.

Rodbolt -- check you PM.

Must be a corn farmer.

 

[rodbolt]

Re: They should put wing nuts on these carburators!!

other than the fact that ethanol costs more than gasoline to produce and my truck gets 2MPG less with it ethanol isnt bad, its all the older storage tanks and such and yes the midwest had terrible issues with it back in the early 90's when it was introduced there.
you cannot pipe ethanol well so its trucked to the fuel distribution terminal where its mixed. its not mixed at the refinery for a reason.
it tends to collect water.
you can take a fuel sample in a clean jar set it on the work bench and in 30 minutes its to cloudy to see through.
but until all the debris is cleaned from tanks,lines and other fuel system parts its killing folks.
me I am making money off of it but its frustrating.
I gave ArnieP a free carb cleaning due to the ethanol ate up his fuel pump diaphram.
the boat ran very well when it left last month.
when he brought it back last week he watched me open up the carbs and I showed him the trash/debris.
my question to those posting is why should I warrenty trash in the carbs when they were clean and the customer even went out on a water test.
is it my fault that trash is in the carbs again??
whose fault is trash in the carbs and why should I warrenty it if I did not put it there.
answer that one

 

[CATransplant]

Re: They should put wing nuts on these carburators!!

It's a tough problem. You intimated that there is more than 10% ethanol in some of the fuel in your area. If that's the case, I'd be looking for a fuel source that gets it right.

We've had 10% ethanol here in Minnesota for a long, long time, and I don't see folks complaining that much about it. I use it, and haven't had a bit of trouble with my outboards, and I don't go through fuel that fast.

So far, I haven't been adding Stabil during the season, and I don't hold any fuel over the cold months. It just hasn't been a problem for anyone I've heard from.

Perhaps you're having some fuel distribution problems with bad batches coming through to the stations. I just don't know.

 

[garyN]

Re: They should put wing nuts on these carburators!!

OK guys, just pulled the carb off my POS 9.9. Had a local expert with me (he has been servicing all the rental boats here and they finally had to throw away the Yamaha's because the simply would not run right. This is not a gas issue - I am almost certain it is a design flaw from the way the four stroke crankcase is vented into the carb (about the poorest excuse for engineering Yamaha can offer). This is absure - dump the dirty oil into the clean carb to keep the EPA happy - and boater in misery.

Rodbolt, you need to understand it is not the gas that is dirty - it is the way the engine emissions and systems are improperly designed. Your customers are making you rich- but you cannot really make the motor run the way it should. I will give mine one last shot - then it is off with the Yamaha and on with a Honda. My neighbor has a 15 year old honda that runs very well - and while he has had to clean the carb once about every 4 years (that is to be expected) I cannot live with this.
Stay tuned, if I can confirm that this oil venting is really the issue, I may open a case with the consumer product safety commission. These motors are not only a pain in the neck, but are dangerous and defective.

Sorry, I bought into the Yamaha hype and wish Mr. JD Powers could come and see just how dis-satisfied we are.
They could fix this, I am sure that inhouse they could come up with a retrofit and dump that dirty oil someplace other than the carb. Wish I had done more homework here.

I have now, in the course of 5 years of ownership, spent more for repairs and service and maintance than I paid for the entire motor (and it doesn't look like it will end unless I sell it). Morally I have a big problem with selling - because it is simply junk and I wish this big company would step up and do the right thing. Circulate a service bulletin and make the changes necessary to get the engines to run. 4 local southern california authorized service dealers have confirmed to me that they really cannot fix it - and to expect to keep paying them to clean it as often as every 45 days. Not acceptable and certainly not good quality. If it really was the gas then Yamaha should be working on the "fix" (new jets) or some external clean out. I also think they may have used inferior aluminum in the casting on the carb, and that metal is interacting with the gas - that is a Yamaha problem, not anyone else. Once they were notified a quality company would look for a fix - and then send out a notice. The only notice I get from Yamaha is offers to extend my warranty - so I pay more money so they can tell me "that isn't covered it is the gas".

If Rodbolt can't fix it - then I guess it's time to try another brand!

 

[rodbolt]

Re: They should put wing nuts on these carburators!!

dude ya gotta understand how the blowby gas system works.
blowby gasses,all 4 strokes regaurdless of make have them,are drawn into the airbox to be reburned in the intake track just like Honda,chevy,ford,mercury and ALL other 4 stroke engines.
the "goo" your finding in the FUEL BOWL CANNOT enter via the carb venturi.
however ArneiP called me from the bay-bridge tunnel the other day to inform me the F50 has purred for the last 6 gallons. we finally had to run with a new tank,new fuel lines and new filters and clear the carbs ,again.
when you buy that Honda make sure you store it the same way and make sure you run the same tank and fuel lines then post how well it runs.
I have to many F9.9,T9.9,T and F 15's and T and F 20's and 25's running arouind to believe in a design flaw.
your F9.9 desighn has been in service for roughly 15 years with almost NO changes.
ALL 4 stroke motors MUST vent the crankcase somehow,most outboards and larger power equipment simply introduce the blowby gasses into the air cleaner or airbox, cars used to simply vent them to the road hence the term down draft tube or road tube.
now most automotive stuff has positive crankcase ventilation (PCV) valving to aid in reburning blowby gasses to improve overall emissions output.
has a leakdown test been run to insure excessize blowby past the rings is not occuring?
most lawn equipment under about 10HP simply vent to the atmosphere still.
MOST outboard 4 strokes,Honda included,vent to the intake air box.
by 2009 all inboard and sterndrive stuff will have catalytic converters as well as closed loop injection and positive crnkcase ventilation unless the EPA relaxs a bit.
outboards are already being prototyped with cats,closed loop and PCV systems.
however it all cost more money and WILL require more careful maint by BETTER trained techs than most I see.
but no, there is no path from the carb venturi to the carb fuel bowl.
only two entrances to the fuel bowl is either the bowl vent or the needle valve fuel inlet.
the venturi being "dirty" is inconsequential and if you can see it with the bowl on its not a problem.

 

[garyN]

Re: They should put wing nuts on these UPDATE

Re: They should put wing nuts on these UPDATE

Well, here is something unexpected and I hope Rodbolt will look at this picture for me and help me out, again. I think the pic is attached. Apparently the guy who cleaned this at the 5 star Yamaha shop, broke off this part that holds the float. It ran - but now (a year later) I have a problem because they cost almost $400.00.

Not sure how this happened and would love some feed back.

No wonder it didn't run well, had noting to do with the gas or dirt, just a mechanic who needs a different career.

 

[garyN]

Re: They should put wing nuts on these carburators!!

Here is the picture, with an annotation so it is obvious what has been broken. This engine did run. However, since I was sure it was the gas, when it started to run bad after it got shaken in the waves, I replaced the fuel tank (three times) the fuel line and everything else.

Would run great for 20+minutes, then die, start hard, backfire, then run again.

When I took it back to Sea Witch Marine in Vista, Ca today, he told me "it could not run- you must have broken it".

Well, we got over that and he is considering "helping" me get a new carb for less $. Frankly, this could have killed someone and never should have happened. I am 100$ certain it must have been done there, as that was the last time the carb was opened!.

Here is the better pic, anyone with ideas or comments is encouraged to reply and I really want to thank Rodbolt, again for being here for all of us rookies. Also, anyone with a used 6G8 carb - I may buy it.

 

[JUSTINTIME]

Re: They should put wing nuts on these carburators!!

wow
5 star means nothing also

pretty hard to brake that off

i had to finally clean my 9.9 carb after 8 years of use, over 400 hrs on it!

 

[rodbolt]

Re: They should put wing nuts on these carburators!!

garyN, I feel your pain.
but while 5 star is a start its still a 20 min video course that a second grader can pass.
its a pre-resiquite for the first outboard systems course.
looks like it possibly got dropped or the pin was driven out the wrong side.
a decent shop would have covered it when it happened or at least part of it.
things do break and its not always a technicians fault.

 

[garyN]

Re: They should put wing nuts on these carburators!!

Thanks

What I need to know is - would it have run with this one side of the float arm broken off.

The shop that I think broke it says it could not have been them because it simply would not have run - it would have flooded as soon as the gas came in?

It ran OK for a while - what do you think, could this have run OK for awhile.

Looking for a used one is almost impossible to find?
Thanks
Gary