Talk me out of deglazing block myself

[j_k_bisson]

I'm looking at a 250-300 for deglazing a 225 evinrude block. The block specs out nicely, well in tolerence. Just wondering what the major reasons would be no to go out and buy a deglazing hone and do it myself. Anyone every try this? What where the results? How much does deglazing take off? .0010" or more? Any tips of the trade? Do you need to use lubricants.

 

[CharlieB]

Re: Talk me out of deglazing block myself

I highly recommend that you leave the honing to the machine shop with the CORRECT hone and experience to rechampher the edges of the ports AFTER honing.

A 'dingle-ball' glaze breaker hone is NOT recommended for two-stoke use as the balls tend to cut unevenly at the port openings.

Straight stone hones cut far more evenly.

All hones should be well lubed/flooded, hone pressure, RPM, and travel speed in/out of the cyl must be consistant to obtain the propper finish and cross-hatch pattern.

After honing the edges of all cyl ports must be checked and chamfered to prevent the rings from catching and breakinig on the sharp edges of the ports.

Then the serious cleaning begins. the cyls/ports/block must be cleaner than 'spotless', all hone/metal residues must be removed before assembly.

 

[R.Johnson]

Re: Talk me out of deglazing block myself

They are not cheap, but a Sunnen hone is the best for home work. Check with you auto store.

 

[Faztbullet]

Re: Talk me out of deglazing block myself

I'm looking at a 250-300 for deglazing a 225 evinrude block.

Whats the name of that shop??? Wrape & Wream?? Here is Mar-Fab pricing for machine work. And yes you can use a dingle,flex,ball hone to deglaze engine. You only use these on cylinder that are within specs and you use the correct size hone. This is the biggest mistake with flex hones are people stuff a 4" hone in a 3-1/2" hole and it makes a mess out of cylinder and ports. You can go 1/4 over size to get to your hole size. This is why I have close to 30 different flex hones.

....................................................MACHINING PRICES
Outboard & PWC
All Covers, Hoses, Bolts, Studs, Rubber and Plastic Materials, Etc. need to be removed from block for shipping and machining. Mar-Fab will remove these items at shop rate before machining.

Inspect/Mic Cylinders...$25.00....Per Block
HONING - Rigid Hone and Crosshatch Cyl for Re-Ringing.............$15.00 Per Cyl
BORING (up to +.064 O.S.) - Includes: applicable port chamfering, honing to finished
size, chamfering top of cyl and stamping cyl size on outer head gasket surface......$50.00 Per Cyl

 

[j_k_bisson]

Re: Talk me out of deglazing block myself

Question, Talking with a buddy today. He stated that a cylinder does not require the x-hatching after the rings have been seated. Is this true? I have a couple cylinders that the x-hatch is almost worn off. Nothing else wrong wit them. Do these really need to be rehoned and ringed? What determines the need for reringing and honing?

 

[levi_tsk]

Re: Talk me out of deglazing block myself

you gotta deglaze it and in doing that youll have to put the cross hatch back in ....
youve got it this far just do it honing isnt the voodoo these guys are making it out to be but if youve never honed a cylinder before i probably wouldnt try to learn on an outboard -but if you have to do it yourself -go slow and use a good up and down rythim i prefer a solid stone hone youll want to go up in the cylinder at the same rate that the hone turns. they are right about one thing though youll have to clean the crap out of it once your finished honing you gotta clean it until you cant get ANY black stuff on your clean paper towl and then clean well beyond that best to dunk it in clean solvent and scrub with a soft brush

 

[boobie]

Re: Talk me out of deglazing block myself

I've used dingle-ball hones for many years and never had a problem. As Faztbullet says, you need the correct size.

 

[dehydrated]

Re: Talk me out of deglazing block myself

I would take it to a machine shop have it back in a couple weeks cleaned and ready to go just my .02 worth these guys do this everyday without thinking about your parts can get ordered in and cleaned and ready for install in that time period id still give the block a good cleaning after you get it back though

 

[R.Johnson]

Re: Talk me out of deglazing block myself

If you are going to use a hone of any type, cut out a piece of sheet metal the same, or slightly smaller than the bore. Drop it down the cylinder before you begin to hone. This will keep the hone from snagging in the web between the cylinder,and crankcase, and damageing the hone

 

[backyard mechanic]

Re: Talk me out of deglazing block myself

I've used both hones dingle ball and sunnen or stone hone. If you need to take out some scars the sunnen is a better choice. Just to make some cross hatch marks... a dingle ball is fine.

I always ask, why the need for the take down. If you mic'd out the walls and all was in spec you had a reason to do so. Be honest with yourself... Decide what REALLY needs to be done not just what you think is cheaper to do.

 

[j_k_bisson]

Re: Talk me out of deglazing block myself

I originally thought the one top port cylinder was very slightly scored in the direction of piston travel. After tear down, cleaning, and inspection there appears to be no scoring on either the piston, ring, or cylinder wall. The x-hatches are 60-75% there in the cylinder walls. The rings have zero nicks or marks on them. After going through the inspection process again last night and reinspecting everything, I have decided not to do anything but reassemble the rotating assembly. I am replacing the seal rings for the crank that are out of tolerence. Only three of them. Afterassembling I'm going to compression test it and if need be either tear down again or go with it. I know this is being "cheap", and possibly doing double the work, but what else do I have to do with 12-15" of snow on the way? I should know what everything is at by end of next week. Worst case I'll be out a gasket set.

 

[dehydrated]

Re: Talk me out of deglazing block myself

jeff , did you ever do compression test before tearing this thing down? if so what were the numbers ? also at this stage i would at least hone and put new rings in it just my .02 worth seems like putting alot of work for nothing gained only to have it give you problems later.

 

[j_k_bisson]

Re: Talk me out of deglazing block myself

It came home in pieces. The block in one piece and the rest in 4. Never had the elecrical set up enough to try to attemp a compression test. Yes i know it stupid of me for going this direction, But I have a trendancy to do things that other people would call nuts....... I call it a leap of faith!!!!!!! LOL

Normally the first step is a killer though.

 

[Faztbullet]

Re: Talk me out of deglazing block myself

Umm Umm Um.....:facepalm:

I guess you like cleaning hardened Gelseal off crankcase halfs You going to find it takes longer to reassemeble it than it did to disassemble it. Bite the bullet and put rings in it....

I can just see the future posts...
"Hello. I have a 1987 225 that was recently rebuilt but it does (insert problems here)......

 

[dazk14]

Re: Talk me out of deglazing block myself

+100 At a minimum, please replace the rings. You're looking to make a reliable/smooth runner and it all begins with compression.

Those long brown discolorations in the photos of your bores are from the ring end gaps and the blowby burning off the oil.

Tighten up those end gaps with new rings. You want "0 time" specs on the end gaps,etc... and you've done the hard work.

I can give countless performance reason to tighten up the compression, but less smoke is one of the benefits in the "Enjoyment factor" category of your motor.

You're a handy guy and ball hone glaze breaking is very quick and simple and you don't need to touch the ports. Probably 20 seconds a hole. You can also 1st try a muriatic acid wipe(pool acid), but the fumes are deadly and it dissolves aluminum, so you must only touch the cast iron bore (no ports, etc..).

Good Luck

 

[j_k_bisson]

Re: Talk me out of deglazing block myself

Ok OK You have me convinced. The blow by stain convinced me. Good argument dazk14

Now then you need to teach me about ball hones. I'll do this myself. What size do I need. My bore is 3.7815" +/- .0015" right now. Do I want a 3.75" to 4" or a 3.5" to 3.75"? Also what grit do I want to use? I have the 1/2" Heavy duty drill. If you look thru the pics of the boat rebuild you can probably see it hanging on the wall. Old Black and Decker wrist braker! lol

Also need the semi-crash course on this. Movement method(1 to 1 ratio=cross movement:rotation)(45 degree x-hatching?), cylinder orientation while honing (vertical or horizontal), honing oil (what brands the best, how much/cylinder, flow rate while honing), drill speed (50rpm to 500rpm), cleanup method (what and how). I'll weigh the pros and cons of doing this myself. Might eventually send it out if it appear over involved. But funds are very limited right now. Will have to wait for a month until it can go out and get done. Two of the kids B-day this month.

My thinking was I was going to tear it down next winter and do a complete re-ring job then. It would give me an understanding of what a wear cycle is on something like this. This is only a fishing motor as some like to say. But dependability is a must. But you convinced me to do right, right now.....

 

[Faztbullet]

Re: Talk me out of deglazing block myself

What size do I need/Also what grit do I want to use?

Below is link to 240 grit hone and the size you need (95mm)
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/3-3-...Z370466496870QQptZMotorsQ5fAutomotiveQ5fTools

Also need the semi-crash course on this. Movement method(1 to 1 ratio=cross movement:rotation)(45 degree x-hatching?), cylinder orientation while honing (vertical or horizontal), honing oil (what brands the best, how much/cylinder, flow rate while honing), drill speed (50rpm to 500rpm), cleanup method (what and how).

Go to link below and watch the second video.....This is easier than trying to describe it.
http://www.brushresearch.com/videos.php
Clean the piston tops to see what brande pistons you have so you can get the correct rings..

 

[dazk14]

Re: Talk me out of deglazing block myself

Ok OK You have me convinced. The blow by stain convinced me. Good argument dazk14


I'm a PE "Tooley" - you should know that term, but if you're a CE, I'll understand. My Uncle had the biggest Marine Dealership in the NE, so I've been around the block(since the early 70's).

Now then you need to teach me about ball hones. I'll do this myself. What size do I need. My bore is 3.7815" +/- .0015" right now. Do I want a 3.75" to 4" or a 3.5" to 3.75"? Also what grit do I want to use? I have the 1/2" Heavy duty drill. If you look thru the pics of the boat rebuild you can probably see it hanging on the wall. Old Black and Decker wrist braker! lol

Listen to Faztbullet. You don't need a strong drill, you're just scuffing up the surface, not removing any appreciable amount. Ball hones are "oversized" by spec.., bullet has done the math - buy it.

Also need the semi-crash course on this. Movement method(1 to 1 ratio=cross movement:rotation)(45 degree x-hatching?), cylinder orientation while honing (vertical or horizontal), honing oil (what brands the best, how much/cylinder, flow rate while honing), drill speed (50rpm to 500rpm), cleanup method (what and how). I'll weigh the pros and cons of doing this myself. Might eventually send it out if it appear over involved. But funds are very limited right now. Will have to wait for a month until it can go out and get done. Two of the kids B-day this month.

Whoa,Whoa,Whoa...you're just scuffing up the surface in a short period of time not honing it any measurable oversize. You can go at at a fairly low speed up and down to create the 45 deg cross hatch. Start at a pathetic low speed and then get it going a little smoother. You've made kids, so you'll get the hang of it. How about 10 seconds futzing and 20 seconds with a comfortable up/down strke. We're talking maybe a 1/8 of a mil here. Most can't measure a thing...
Bore vertical is easiest. For deglazing, anything less than 30 weight will work. Atf is fine, 10W is great. Cutting oil, silicone spray,... The centrifical force tend to keep the hone wet - stop at 15sec and reload your oil of choice and then finish up.
Stiff brush and soap and water cleanup. Oil the bores.

My thinking was I was going to tear it down next winter and do a complete re-ring job then. It would give me an understanding of what a wear cycle is on something like this. This is only a fishing motor as some like to say. But dependability is a must. But you convinced me to do right, right now.....

If you can mic a bore, you can EASILY put a ball hone through it. Don't torture yourself, we're talking scuffing up a bore and with fresh rings will put you miles ahead of old rings with normal wear. Perfection is the enemy of good here and perfection (vs. good) won't give you any real payback here in your application.

 

[j_k_bisson]

Re: Talk me out of deglazing block myself

Just watched the vids. That does not sound or look too hard or intimidating now. So I need the hone, hone oil, and cleaning brush. Any type of cleaning compound needed? It dish soap or laundry soap. What works best? My wife is going to hate what her laundry tub is going to look like after I get done with it. LOL Might have to pick up one of those as well.

I'll post the piston pics and info on my other motor thread this afternoon. After I get done shovelling the drive. That stom was a washout. Only 2-3" instead of the 12-15" they advertised. Damn I wanted a couple days off work this week. Only one now.

 

[j_k_bisson]

Re: Talk me out of deglazing block myself

Posted the pics of the piston tops over at the rebuild thread. If you want to help decide who made them and help figure out what ring brand I need, please stop by over there. Thanks for all the help everyone with convincing me to do this. I do knwo that it will make a difference.