Surge AND Electric

[BigDiesel]

Recently I posted a topic called "problems at launch?" Since that time, I have been researching electric drum brakes to replace the surge brakes on my trailer so that I have additional stopping power when backing down steep ramps.<br /><br />Today I had an interesting discussion with a trailer mechanic. He suggested that I keep my surge brakes (can then tow the trailer with any vehicle) and add the electric brakes primarily for backing down ramps and as a backup for the surge. I have a tandem axle trailer and the surge brakes are only on the first axle. The trailer stops extremely well so apparently these brakes are sufficient. All I would do is add electric brakes to the rear axle. The beauty of this is that I would not use the electric brakes during normal towing (controller set to completely disengage). When backing down the ramp, the weight of the trailer would disengage the surge brakes and then I could turn up the friction of the electric brakes. Since the electric are the secondary brakes, I do not have to have a premium electric controller, the break-away kit, nor the backup battery.<br /><br />I am almost sold on the idea, but I want to be sure that I am not overlooking anything. Has anyone done something similar?

 

[DJ]

Re: Surge AND Electric

HydroSwift,<br /><br />Sounds like a great idea. I've never seen a set up like that but it makes sense.

 

[bubbakat]

Re: Surge AND Electric

hydro I had completely forgot about that type of set up. That system works real well

 

[Bondo]

Re: Surge AND Electric

After reading this,+ your previous post, I think you're going Overboard........<br />You're about to spend a ton of money, on a Precieved Problem.......<br /><br />IF your truck will pull the boat up the launch, It'll Stop it as Well.........<br /><br />Why don't you TRY it first....<br />Use 4X4 Low for the 1st trip.... If that works, Try 4X4 high.....<br />At Backing Speeds, that 1/2 ton Ford Should be able to Lock All 4 Tires.....<br />So, If your boat Drags the truck down the ramp, You Need a Bigger Truck, Not more trailer Brakes......

 

[BigDiesel]

Re: Surge AND Electric

DJohns and Bubba :<br /><br />Thanks for the support. The setup sounds pretty good to me too.<br /><br />Bondo:<br /><br />I appreciate the input and your willingness to share your opinions. However, I must disagree with you. My truck is 2 years old and satisfies 99% of the things that I bought it to do. Aside from that, I have added a few customizations (hinged tonneau cover, cd player, synthetic fluids, etc.) to make the truck even better suited for my needs. It is true that I have not yet tried the truck-boat combination on a ramp, but why take chances when there is the question of concern? Adding a set of electric brakes as a secondary system will give me the reassurance of having a redundant braking system during normal towing and aleviate all of my concerns when backing down a steep ramp. The complete system will cost me $250, not a cheap price, but not an extravagant price either. With the trailer's tongue weight on the rear of the truck and the truck's 4x4, I do feel confident that it can handle the situation. However, I have quite the money invested in both the truck and the boat ... why risk the possibility of dragging the truck or placing unnecessary wear on the drivetrain, engine valves, and brakes, when a $250 investment will relieve all of that? Not to mention having a larger monthly payment for a truck that would be serious overkill for my normal tasks.

 

[Lark40]

Re: Surge AND Electric

You are still going to have the slamming and banging of the surge system taking its toll on your tow vehicle and your nerves. With the electric or electric-over-hydraulic, you can enjoy smooth driving.<br /><br />The reason almost no one else has done this is not that they have less invested in their rigs, or care less about safety, it's because it would involve twice the cost and maintenance while offering an unproven value.<br /><br />If this combination was so superior, don't you think that some trailer maker would be offering it?

 

[bubbakat]

Re: Surge AND Electric

lark I know for a fact when I bought my 28 foot goose neck made by Cherokee trailer and my 32 foot wilson cattle trailer they offered me this set up but since I was already set up the other way I opted to go with hydro and elect.

 

[boater4life]

Re: Surge AND Electric

The best system yet is electric over hydraulic. You will have the best of all worlds. All you will need to do is change your coupler and add an electric actuator. It converts the electric signal to activate your hyraulic brakes.<br /><br /> http://www.greatlakestrailers.com/ <br /><br />

 

[Boatist]

Re: Surge AND Electric

HydroSwift<br />I have to agree with bondo. If you can pull the trailer out you will have no trouble backing it down. Even if you have a 4 x 4 with a posi rear end you really only have 3 wheel drive. You four wheel brakes will do better than your 3 wheel drive. Only thing you must do is control your speed and not slam on the brakes, go slow and you will have no problem.<br /><br />I been boating for over 40 years with several types of boats and never had trouble backing down. I launched on uninproved ramps duck hunting frogging and fishing. I launched on dirt ramps, gravel ramps, sand ramps, asphalt ramps and never seen a boat that could pull out but could not back down. Ofcourse except for the ones that never learned to back up a trailer.<br /><br />I pulled two trucks out of the water with boat and trailer attached. First one the guy parking brake did not work so he used a 4x4 block to block the front wheel on the driver side and left motor running in neutural. As he cranked the boat up it pulled the truck back over the block, and with no brake and engine out of gear of course it went in. All we could see was his wife holding a roap on the boat and very front of the hood.<br /><br />The other guy was at a ocean saltwater ramp covered with moss on a minus tide day. While many use this ramp it is very slick and if you get out of your truck you likely will slide down the ramp on your rear end and into the water. Where truck tires back down the moss is very light but get out of the main tracks and your have problems. He backed down way out of the main tracks and jackknifed the trailer. Still 8 feet from the water, then he tried to pull it out with his truck in four wheel drive but got no traction at all and slid sideways into the drink.<br /><br />Anyway I am with bondo go slow and try it if you can pull it out you will have no problem backing it in. <br /><br />I can tell you I have probably seen over 1000 who could not pull their big boat out out with a 2 wheel drive pickup on a steep ramp but had no trouble backing in.<br /><br />Breaks are the biggest maintenance item on trailer in saltwater. Every year I see many tandom axel trailers where one wheel is not turning at all as the guy pulls his trailer to retreive his boat. More than half of the time it is the brake cylinder rusted and frooze up. Ofcourse can also be bearing.<br /><br />Give it a try I think you will find you are fine with what you got.

 

[BigDiesel]

Re: Surge AND Electric

Well, thanks for all of the input, I've been away working on the trailer. I'll try to answer and hope that I do not offend anyone.<br /><br />Lark40: It is not my intention to create a superior braking system to what is currently available no impress any trailer manufacturers. My sole intention is to increase my comfort level, i.e, when I tow my boat to whatever ramp, I have complete confidence that I can both launch and retrieve it.<br /><br />Boater4Life: Electric over surge may be great, but I cannot justify the $1K price tag when 1/4 of that will give me the safety that I deem necessary.<br /><br />Boatist: That was a very nice post, thank you. The one thing that I have learned from this forum is the importance of using wheel chocks when launching/retrieving and your post re-iterated that. We had a very late summer and on the weekends I like to go down to the boat ramps to watch people, learn what and what not to do. I think that it was two or three weeks ago I was there on a Sunday and this guy pulled up with his 30' (?) cruiser and his 4WD Sierra. He and his wife prepped efficiently and perfectly, I was impressed. She got in the boat and he in the truck and they started slowly down the ramp. Since it was the last of the beautiful days of summer, that ramp had been rather busy and people tried to squeeze in their last bit of boating. I could not see what the guy ran over, maybe a bit of moss or the dock cable, but the truck lost traction and both boat and truck started going down the ramp with ALL four of the truck tires locked! The guy apparently put it in 4WD forward because the tires started started turning forward and with a small lurch the truck regained traction. I had heard about this happening and now I had just seen it with my own two eyes. For me, this phenomenon is very real.<br /><br />As luck would have it, the trailer company owner has a boat and an oversized garage (meaning, he as year-round access to his boat). A week after I saw the Sierra slide, I went in to place my electric brake order. Bernard was there and offered to show me the added benefit of the electric plus surge. We towed his boat outside of town where there are several small mountains (buttes) and one in particular one that has a steep grade. Going up the steep mountain, Bernard stopped and put the truck in reverse, backing down slowly. He then put the truck in neutral and turned up the electric brake controller. Trailer and truck stopped dead ... no truck brakes applied. What I did not realize is that when the electric brakes engage when the trailer is going downhill backwards, the truck will push against the surge actuator and thereby apply the surge brakes ... so you have four brakes applied under 85% of your boat weight. I was sold! It has been stated that towing is the easy part, stopping is the critical part. I feel much more comfortable knowing that in any situation, not just backing down a boat ramp, I have additional braking capacity when towing my boat.

 

[Lark40]

Re: Surge AND Electric

OK - you sold me. Great points about the Sierra sliding and the test Bernard did for you.<br /><br />Maybe if I ever get a tandem axle rig, that setup sounds very attractive.

 

[Boatist]

Re: Surge AND Electric

Hydro<br />With your setup if you go that route you will need to back down out of gear or do something to wireing to stop the reverse lockout solenoid from working if you have hydrolic surge disk brakes. If you do not rewire if you put it in reverse then the surge brakes will not work. Also some electric brakes are called free backing brakes. This means will not brake much at all when wheel turning backward because the design of the brake system is to relese the brake when backing. Most hydrolic surge brakes do this also. The Hyrodrolic surge disk brakes use the solenoid.<br />The new EZ loader electric brakes use the foward motion of the wheel to apply the brakes. Make sure you get the right type if you think you need brakes on the ramp.