Super Fastwin restoration hits a snag.....problems in the lower

[mark in new jersey]

As discussed in other threads I've started, I'm restoring a '53 Super Fastwin 15012 15HP.

Today, I dropped the lower.

Opening the grease screw, water ran out. Swell. What a mess..... as you can see here.

But everything cleaned up pretty well, and the lower gears are in remarkably good condition

Without any way to know which seal is leaking, I figure I'd be smart to change them all. I have questions galore.

As discussed in this thread (and verified by an e-mail from Ken Cook) a service manual for this model never existed. Without real data to guide me, I'm at a loss to fully understand several things:

1.) How are the "top-of-the-lower" seals, shown here, removed? The driveshaft seal looks like it should "pull right out", but it doesn't......and the shift shaft seal, down below it? That's a total mystery to me!

2.) how is the driveshaft seal, shown here, removed from the end bearing?

Next, I hit a problem....and it might be a biggie.

Opening up the impeller housing, and removing the driveshaft, I noticed a lot of galling on the shaft around the pump area. I further noticed that the pin which drives the impeller was broken off.

Take a look at this picture, here.

I also noticed that the impeller has a keyway in it. A pin, driving a keyed slot? First of all, from an engineering standpoint, that just seems all wrong (like....maybe this was the wrong impeller?), and second, with the pin sheered off, one is forced to wonder how long this motor was run without cooling water. After all, no shaft pin = no impeller engagement = no impeller rotation = no water flowing = no engine cooling. I'm not getting a warm & fuzzy feeling about my project.....

So: I have a friend with a nice machine shop. Do I just have him drill out the old pin & put in a new one? Or do I scrounge up another shaft?

Comments, suggestions & observations are welcome!

 

[todd57]

Re: Super Fastwin restoration hits a snag.....problems in the lower

I can't speak to the gearcase seals issues, but I know that my impeller and pin setup was just like yours. I think that is common on the engines during that period. It didn't make sense to me either when I first saw it. Round peg in a square hole?

 

[HighTrim]

Re: Super Fastwin restoration hits a snag.....problems in the lower

I actually just finished up the same motor about an hour ago, mechanically restored for a co worker.

If you pm me, I can help you with some of the manuals, send me your email address.

Now regarding your questions:

For the gearcase reseal, you are going to need a few tools that you may not already have. The first will be a generic seal puller, for the drive shaft and prop shaft seals. Here is an example.

http://www.harborfreight.com/seal-puller-35556.html

For the shift rod seal, you need to make your own tool like this...

And drive it out like so....

The tool is a rod tapered down to a quarter inch on a bench grinder. FR also makes a tool if you PM him.

For reinstallation you are going to need some 3M 847, best product for a re seal. This is especially important for the spaghetti seal. Regarding that, cut the seal 1/16 inch too big, and cut it off square, not angled, so it seals when re installed.

The drive shaft does not look too bad from the pics, maybe post another couple pics. The new key should come with the impeller when you order it, it did not break off, it is seperate as stated. Likely just dropped it when your took it apart.

Let us know if you have any further questions.

 

[mark in new jersey]

Re: Super Fastwin restoration hits a snag.....problems in the lower

What size rod is that ? You said tapered to 1/4", but what size is the major diameter?

As for the seals.....excuse my ignorance, but how does that thing http://www.harborfreight.com/seal-puller-35556.html work? I'm at a complete loss to visualize that hook doing anything with / to the seals in question.

I'll PM you re: manuals.....

 

[mark in new jersey]

Re: Super Fastwin restoration hits a snag.....problems in the lower

I should also ask....what do you mean by this:

The drive shaft does not look too bad from the pics, maybe post another couple pics. The new key should come with the impeller when you order it, it did not break off, it is seperate as stated. Likely just dropped it when your took it apart.

I'm not sure I'm following.

No "key" fell off. There's no key here. It's a pin, and it's most certainly broken off in the shaft.

 

[HighTrim]

Re: Super Fastwin restoration hits a snag.....problems in the lower

This is one way, not my method, but I suppose it works.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wu6BgXYxefs

This is the way the T handled type puller works

Im not sure, but another option for the prop shaft seal is to drive it out from the back side. I believe on that model there are 2 holes that a punch can be inserted into to drive the seal out, but I always just use my puller.

The rod was a 5/16 if I remember correctly.

 

[HighTrim]

Re: Super Fastwin restoration hits a snag.....problems in the lower

That is right sorry that model does have a pin, I did a few water pumps today and my brain was clustered.

If you do need a new drive shaft I have a parts motor that I could pull the drive shaft out of. let me know how bad it is, Im sure it is nothing that a little emory cloth wont clean up though.

Dont forget to also change the o ring at the top of the drive shaft splines, and apply new marine grease to the splines before re installing.

 

[HighTrim]

Re: Super Fastwin restoration hits a snag.....problems in the lower

Hopefully you can get the half of the pin in the shaft out without too much effort

 

[mark in new jersey]

Re: Super Fastwin restoration hits a snag.....problems in the lower

I have a friend with a state-of-the-art machine shop....with a little luck, we can drill it out.

 

[mark in new jersey]

Re: Super Fastwin restoration hits a snag.....problems in the lower

Here's an update before I close up the shop for the evening.

I went looking for "anything hard, straight, sacrificial & 5/16" in diameter", and I found a 18" drill but extender. 5/6" shaft, and one end is already 1/4" with a nice shoulder at the transition. Tap, tap, tap.....out came the shifter plug & O ring.

The propshaft seal.....I used a drift pin, tap, tap, tap from the inside.....out came the seal

2 for 2!

Then the driveshaft seal. No such "happy ending"....

I went to my next door neighbor, he had a seal puller (like the harbor freight one) & gladly showed me how to use it. A good yank and the seal flew up & hit the ceiling. Or so we thought. it was the tip of the puller. It tore right through the seal lip and broke off of the tool. The seal was NOT coming out.

Ultimately, the seal top simply disintegrated.....we had to break it out bit by bit, and in doing so we put some score marks into the wall of the casting where the seal wall sits. This could be a huge problem, although the score marks are few and don't go all the way to the shelf. Only time will tell if we botched the casting big time or not.

Is there some sort of glue / goo that can accompany the new seal which will fill the score marks?

 

[HighTrim]

Re: Super Fastwin restoration hits a snag.....problems in the lower

Yup, already mentioned it, 3M847

 

[mark in new jersey]

Re: Super Fastwin restoration hits a snag.....problems in the lower

Excellent. Thanks for all the help,

Mark

 

[RandyJ]

Re: Super Fastwin restoration hits a snag.....problems in the lower

Just my little addition here... on seals where applicable I've several times used a slide hammer to pull them if nothing else handy worked. Simply drill or somehow get a small hole in the seal then screw in the slide hammer and give it a couple of yanks. Usually does the trick... if not then resort to drastic measures.

 

[mark in new jersey]

Re: Super Fastwin restoration hits a snag.....problems in the lower

And drive it out like so....

I'm now second-guessing myself.....

Looking at this picture, I realize that I drove mine out from the opposite direction....from "bottom -- up".

Is this picture a "real action shot"? Are you actually driving downward?

Mine came out....nothing's broken, I believe. But I certainly didn't do it like your picture. Help!

 

[HighTrim]

Re: Super Fastwin restoration hits a snag.....problems in the lower

The gearcase in the picture is from a 57 Javelin that I am restoring, on that model the shift rod o ring and bushing are driven out from the top.

I did not have a Super Fastwin gearcase apart when I went in the basement, the shift rod bushing and o ring are in fact driven out from the bottom up as you stated.

Sorry should have thought about the difference before taking the pic, was just trying to give a quick general idea of what to do.

 

[lindy46]

Re: Super Fastwin restoration hits a snag.....problems in the lower

Some drive out from the top, some from the bottom. Just depends on the individual motor. Just a comment when using the seal puller, you WILL destroy the old seal, but it is important to take it easy and pry a little at one spot, move around the perimeter to another spot, and keep going around, a little at a time. And avoid letting the tip of the tool hit the casting or you end up with score marks as you already know.

 

[kfa4303]

Re: Super Fastwin restoration hits a snag.....problems in the lower

No worries Mark. I've had to literally chip, clip, snip and peel seals out before. In a perfect world they should pop right out, but you never know. Assuming the scratches aren't too bad you should be fine. Just install the new drive shaft seal with the 3M 847 (my mechanic says Permatex 1000 is ok too?), tap it down until seated and you should be good to go. I suppose if there are any large gouges you could fill them with JB weld, let harden then sand flush, but I doubt it's necessary. Here's another link on changing seals that may help too. Good luck.

http://forums.iboats.com/showthread.php?t=277190&highlight=lower+unit+seal+kit+installation

 

[mark in new jersey]

Re: Super Fastwin restoration hits a snag.....problems in the lower

I was feeling a bit down last night....

- seal removal left gouges
- the impeller drive pin is sheered off
- the shaft is galled up where it rides the bronze bushing (just below the top seal), and the bronze bushing has some scars, too.

But I've cleaned up the bronze busing, the shaft polished up "ok", and you all have me feeling OK about the gouges. My machinist buddy tells me that the pin is no big deal....he intends to drill the old pin, and fabricate a better pin: round for the shaft hole, but key-shaped rectangle to better engage the slot on the impeller.

All told, I think this lower may come out OK, after all.

When rebuilding this, what goes in the lower gearcase? Just 90 weight, like a car differential? Or some special gear oil? And is there a preferred tool / pump for injecting it?

Thanks guys!

 

[kfa4303]

Re: Super Fastwin restoration hits a snag.....problems in the lower

80-90W marine gear case oil is what you want (lots of brands out there). you can get it at most auto parts stores and/or NAPA. You'll probably want to get a pump too, if you don't have one already. They should sell them right next to the oil. Just pump from the bottom up until new, fresh, clean oil comes out of the top VENT hole, then replace upper screw and remove pump and replace the lower DRAIN screw. That's about it. Here's a link with a pic of the oil and vid too.


http://www.kmart.com/pennzoil-marine-gear-lube-high-viscosity-lower-unit/p-089W811621110001P

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=neYroHtSheQ

 

[HighTrim]

Re: Super Fastwin restoration hits a snag.....problems in the lower

...and dont forget new crush washers on the screws. They are available at the dealer.