stumped-lots of water in oil

[1993 celebrity 4.3L]

1993 Celebrity 4.3L V6 only 350 hours

Got the boat at the shop with what started out as getting the battery cables replaced due to a very slow to crank motor. Cables were showing signs of corrosion and were putting up a lot of resistance. Things have progressed to my mech. finding water in the cylinders. He dried them out threw some plugs in it and fired it up. He put it in the water and after 5 minutes or so it starting hammering real bad with more water intrusion. Now he's got the heads off to look for cracks and visually they look fine. Head gaskets look fine. He's sending the heads to a machine shop for inspection next.

He's a little stumped. He said the crankcase took in about a gallon of water and that he's never seen a boat ingest that much water.

What else can we look for? He said the flappers are completely burned out to non existence but he said he's seen many boats from similar year and make, go without them with no problems.

Could the block be cracked internally? Doesn't leak water externally at all.

HELP!!!!

 

[1993 celebrity 4.3L]

Re: stumped-lots of water in oil

Forgot to mention, manifolds all look good as well.

 

[Don S]

Re: stumped-lots of water in oil

Manifolds WILL NOT cause that much water, Cracked block would be my guess. But guesses don't count. They need to be found, and a cooling system pressure test, or leakdown test BEFORE taking the engine apart is how you do that. Now you are stuck with searching for it. or putting the heads back on (with new gaskets) and doing a leakdown test to locate it.

 

[1993 celebrity 4.3L]

Re: stumped-lots of water in oil

Got an update on my oil in water situation and looking for additional thoughts. I am now $1200 into this thing, mostly from labor and there are still no answers. The marine mech I'm using is very experienced and trustworthy and has even had 2 other mechs with even more experience look at this motor and all 3 are baffled. None of them have seen as much water in the crankcase as mine. However, everything has checked out with flying colors(at least to the naked eye).

1.Heads have been pulled and appear to be good (will be sent to machine shop for thorough inspection tomorrow). Head gaskets look good.

2.Both manifolds pulled and inspected, everything including gaskets look good.

3.Block inspected with no cracks( at least as much of the block as they can see). He has checked the areas that he says this model of block will almost always crack.

4. He has told me that the flappers are completely gone but he seriously doubts that much water would make it's way into the crankcase that way.


What in gods name can be causing such sever ingestion of water??? We're talking about 3 quarts of water into the oil.

I'm really in a bad spot with this boat because I owe way more then the boat will sell for as is. I can't afford a new motor. I wouldn't feel so sick if I knew that my $1200 fixed the boat, but spending that much and not finding the problem is causing me to lose sleep......seriously!!!! I need help!!

The boat has been in the water twice this year. both times it ran great. The second time out it ran strong all day and it never got hot or quite on me. I simply shut it off to pull in a tuber and it wouldn't start back up. I would think that if the block were cracked, it would have given us fits earlier in the day.

 

[ziggy]

Re: stumped-lots of water in oil

2.Both manifolds pulled and inspected, everything including gaskets look good.

3.Block inspected with no cracks( at least as much of the block as they can see). He has checked the areas that he says this model of block will almost always crack.

how can you visually inspect these, you can't see the inside the water jacket...

a cooling system pressure test, or leakdown test BEFORE taking the engine apart is how you do that.

seems like the answer......

 

[95yj]

Re: stumped-lots of water in oil

Sounds like your "mechanic" is going about things the wrong way. As Don pointed out, your need to find the problem, not guess at it. All they are doing is using your money to attempt to learn for themselves.

Good luck with this, but if it were me, I'd make a big stink about paying for anything. You are paying the mechanic to solve a problem, not paying him to make more and more guesses. It's time to get your boat back and find someone who knows what they are doing. If the shop is reputable but the mechanic isn't the sharpest, you might have a shot at it. If the shop is the same as the mechanic, you now have a large bill that accomplished nothing.

 

[1993 celebrity 4.3L]

Re: stumped-lots of water in oil

Thanks for the response guys. Excuse my ignorance on much of this stuff. So a pressure test and or leakdown test must be performed when all the components are intact right?(the heads and manifolds back on) Does the motor need to be running to conduct these tests?

How accurate or effective is this test going to be in determining where I've got a break/crack in the system and where this water is getting into the oil. Will it tell anything about the block and any internal cracks it may have. What about the water jackets in the manifolds that were mentioned by another poster?

 

[KaGee]

Re: stumped-lots of water in oil

Have your "Experts" read these:

http://www.boatfix.com/merc/Bullet/01/01_10.pdf (Water damaged engine)


http://www.boatfix.com/merc/Bullet/01/01_13.pdf (Water Intrusion Bulletin)

 

[95yj]

Re: stumped-lots of water in oil

Good reading. He'll be particularly impressed with Section 3 of the first article:

B. Do not disassemble any exhaust component or remove cylinder heads.

 

[1993 celebrity 4.3L]

Re: stumped-lots of water in oil

very good info. I am going to email him a copy of them. I agree that there are things he should have done before disassembling anything but at this point we're beyond that. The motor is tore apart and I'm allready into some big money so it's either try to get the problem solved with him or pay up with him and try to find someone else that I don't know all to take over where he left off. Either way I'm not in a good spot.

I'm hoping that my problem is somewhere within the bulletin section on "engine running conditions". Something with ignition misfire, bad valves or sticking exhaust valve. He did say there was a valve stuck on one of the cylinders when he did the first compression test before disassembling.

My question is, can a stuck valve allow water in or would the water have to allready be in the cylinder from another problem area. I hope my question makes sense.

 

[gamarines2]

Re: stumped-lots of water in oil

Well, two things come to my mind. 1. Your mechanic confirmed that your "flappers" are non-existent. The whole purpose of those flappers is to prevent water from coming up your exhaust and into your engine, especially when you stop suddenly like when 2. Pulling somebody on a tube/ski/kneeboard, etc.......

My non-professional, seaman apprentice assessment is you need to replace those flappers and get your boat out of the shop and in the water where it's supposed to be. If your mercruiser authorized mechanic didn't heed the bulletins, perhaps his certification should be questioned.

 

[95yj]

Re: stumped-lots of water in oil

I stated it before and I'll say it again, you need to get your boat back from them before they spend more of your money while they learn how to diagnose a boat. IMO you owe them nothing or at most only what they spent sending your parts off to a shop to have tested, but since they went about that wrong I'd have a hard time paying them for that. You are paying them to fix a problem but they haven't come close to doing that let alone going about it in the proper way.

I have zero tolerance for shops and mechanics who don't know their job. There's something wrong if I take my car/boat/body/teeth or whatever into a "professional" and I know more than they do. There are too many people who don't know their job or else don't care enough to do it right when you are paying the bill. It makes a bad name for all the good mechanics out there. That's one of the reasons this board is such a great place. There're quite a few professionals here who do this day in and out, know their stuff and can steer us "shade tree mechanics" in the proper direction.

 

[180shabah]

Re: stumped-lots of water in oil

...Your mechanic confirmed that your "flappers" are non-existent. The whole purpose of those flappers is to prevent water from coming up your exhaust and into your engine...

I agree that the flappers need to be replaced, but they are not the root cause of his current problems. Water from the exhaust enters the top of an open cylinder, it does not go straight to the crankcase.

At this point it would still be better to reassemble the engine(use the cheapest gasket set that the parts store has, for this) and start testing properly.

 

[1993 celebrity 4.3L]

Re: stumped-lots of water in oil

good and insightful discussion guys, thanks.

I've read both bulletins very closely and to be truthful I think the guy has followed them pretty well.

1. The bulletin on engines with water damage, very first sentence says "use this bulletin when working on an engine that is still within the warranty period. Mine is not.

2. He did steps 1 and 2. He pulled the plugs and dried out the cylinders. He put in new plugs and got it running. I guess where he went wrong is he (with my permission, went ahead and disassembled exhaust components and heads without taking "measurements" as indicated in Step 3 A.

3. The bulletinon water intrusion he has followed very closely it appears to me. Section on "water on top of pistons" says one possiblity is that there is a bad cylinder head gasket or cracked cylinder head or cylinder. It says the only way to find this problem is to pull the heads and inspect cylinder and gasket.

4. No where in the bulliten does it mention doing any kind of testing.


Here's my theory at this point and tell if I'm crazy. He said that when you found water in the cylinders he did a compression test and one cylinder was real low and that it had an open valve. Our last time on the water, we ran hard but good all day and then I shut it off for a short time. It would not restart and I cranked it hard and many times trying to get it started. If that valve was stuck open, that cylinder was sucking water in as I was cranking it over and over. Wouldn't that water end up in the crank case?

I guess I'll know more when the machine shop returns the heads. They are going to pull all the valves and inspect and clean everything up real good.

 

[Limited-Time]

Re: stumped-lots of water in oil

The flappers are a safety deal there to prevent water from flooding a stalled or non running engine. If the engine is running the exhaust pressure will not allow water to enter the exhaust system. Just try filling your exhaust pipe with water with the engine running. FWIW The only way I've seen the amount of water your describing enters the crankcase is through a crack in the block between a water passage and the crankcase. Sorry

 

[eriediver]

Re: stumped-lots of water in oil

I just ran into a similar problem with my friend's sea ray. He has the 7.4 liter. We were out tubing, boat ran great all day. stopped to pull in tube & people & boat never re started. Same thing happened, motor was full of water. Dried out the cylinders, put oil in them, new plugs & replaced the flappers & problem is gone. I would start with replacing the flappers, but chances are when it hydro locked you bent a valve, hence the reason it's stuck. You'll need at the minimum a valve job & new flappers.

 

[1993 celebrity 4.3L]

Re: stumped-lots of water in oil

needless to say, I like Eriedivers diagnosis better then Limited's but I realize both are possibilities. My mech says he's never seen that much water come in through the flappers but who knows. Right now my only options are getting the heads, rods and valves checked out and getting it all put back together and cross my fingers, toes, arms, legs and whatever else I can cross.

I am going to have him replace the flappers because obviously it can't hurt. Is it a big deal to have that done? How much am I looking at for parts/labor?

 

[eriediver]

Re: stumped-lots of water in oil

I think the flappers for my friends big block Mercruiser were $35 each. Very easy to do with everything already apart. They go right in at the rubber flange at the back side of the motor. Good Luck.

 

[180shabah]

Re: stumped-lots of water in oil

Agreed, replace the flappers, they are cheap.

However, the flappers are not his issue. Bad or non-existant flappers would allow water ON TOP of the piston. His water is BENEATH the piston. Most likely is a cracked block, he added a gallon of water to the crankcase in just a few minutes.

 

[KaGee]

Re: stumped-lots of water in oil

Any marine mechanic worth his salt should know how to do a block pressure test of the cooling system. Took all of 15 minutes to find the crack i n my old block that had gone undetected prior to the test.