Solenoid / Rectifier grounding problem ??

[Think oar Thwim]

Hi All !!

I would first like to say that I am brand new to this forum as a member,but have enjoyed reading it for sometime,and have developed a great respect for those that have developed the skills to help so many to help themselves.
I'm sure it would not be overstated to say that you have kept many of vintage engines from finding "Davey Jones's" locker, I can only hope at some point I can be as helpful....but for now I am baffled and in great need of assistance..

My problem..> I am the proud owner of a 1968 Evinrude Triumph 55hp 3cyl.
model #55872 R , when getting ready for storage last year ,I had put it on the muffs and attempted to fire the engine, at which time the starter cranked,and continued to run at a full clip,without firing the engine,and although I had released the key ,it just kept running,at that point I killed the throtle because I didn't want it to fire in that state, and I was forced to remove the batteries positive cable to kill it.

Afterwards I inspected the wiring and could see nothing obvious,with the exception of an original rectifiers positive red wire insulation slightly cracked at the base of course so I could not repair, I have since then purchased a new rectifier, of course its the newest replacement number for this old girl, and I have purchased a brand new starting battery, but I can't figure why either of these things could have been the cause of the starter run-on, and now I am a little leary of reconnecting and firing,fearing I might toast the new rectifier... I have a Johnson / Evinrude manual but it covers more than just my motor and the schecmatics are not all that clear to me,and I fear they devoted a little to all and is not detailed enough for me to feel confident.

I am brand new at trouble shooting outboard motors,but I do have mechanical common sense to a certain degree.
This was my Fathers motor before me, and I have limited funds,but it is packaged with one of rangers first aluminum Cherokees,and would love to keep it intact in honor of all the fishing trips I enjoyed as a child with my father,,and I just dont want to create problems where there arent any.

So please if anyone could point me in the right direction as to tracking this starter run-on, and or its association with the rectifier I would greatly appreciate it........thanks in advance for any suggestions
T.o.T.

 

[larky]

Re: Solenoid / Rectifier grounding problem ??

not familiar with your motor or setup, but if it was my setup i would suspect the ignition swith "sticking" or the starter solenoid "sticking". someone will be along with more experience with your motor. good luck

 

[BoatBuoy]

Re: Solenoid / Rectifier grounding problem ??

not familiar with your motor or setup, but if it was my setup i would suspect the ignition swith "sticking" or the starter solenoid "sticking". someone will be along with more experience with your motor. good luck

Yep. Happened on my lawn tractor the other day. Had to whack the solenoid with a wrench to get it to stop.

 

[fireman57]

Re: Solenoid / Rectifier grounding problem ??

Welcome to iboats. You can probably take your old solenoid to an auto parts store and have them compare it to a Ford solenoid. This is not a marine grade part but it will work and a lot cheaper.

 

[Think oar Thwim]

Re: Solenoid / Rectifier grounding problem ??

Thanks Guys for the quick responses, those are things I considered but I am not sure how to test in advance, I can check for obvious wiring problems, bad or dirty connections cracked insulator etc. but My fears are about the high energy relationship between the rectifier,the amount of power that the stator can produce,and the positive solenoid post, the starter,and power pack,and their proper grounding.

I may misunderstand the science,but I thought being a CD ignition, that the voltage at the stator is boosted way up,and my concern is not having the proper schematics to make sure that the stator or power pack wasnt releasing a cycle of power that was returning to the solenoid and keeping the starter running.

I may not be explaining it correctly,but I hope someone who knows about these things does, I fear after replacing the rectifier, that it was something else causing the starter run-on,and I'll toast a new rectifier,by attempting it

Thanks again for any and all help............T.o.T

 

[F_R]

Re: Solenoid / Rectifier grounding problem ??

DO NOT use a Ford Solenoid! It is different. Although you can make it work...sorta...you will lose the function of the safety switch. The safety switch prevents you from starting it in gear and wide open throttle and pitching you out of the boat or running over the dock....or a person. Never compromise on safety. Get a proper new solenoid if you need one from a dealer aor right here at iboats.

 

[Chris1956]

Re: Solenoid / Rectifier grounding problem ??

ToT, Although I am not familar with your particular model, I do not think the rectifier and starter solenoid interact electrically. Rectifiers go bad when they are disconnected from the battery when the motor is running. Starter Solenoids are connected to the battery, ground and the ignition switch, but not directly to the rectifier. In addition, I would think a 1968 OMC would be a points/magneto or battery-points-coil ignition.

On to your problem. I would think that either your solenoid stuck in the closed position (a bit unusual) or the ignition switch stuck or there is some insulation damage on a hot wire and the solenoid wire. You will want to troubleshoot the problem. It should be easy to check the solenoid with an ohmmeter, and replace with marine parts.

 

[F_R]

Re: Solenoid / Rectifier grounding problem ??

Don't be trying to relate all that other stuff to the continous cranking problem. They are all different circuits. True, they all run off the same battery, but.....never mind, this is not a good time for a crash course in electricity.

Beg, buy, borrow or steal a voltmeter. Ground the black lead and connect the other one to one of the small terminals on the solenoid. Depending on which one you picked, you should get 12 volts ONLY when the key is turned to start. The other terminal will show 0 volts because it is grounded through the safety switch.

The starter should run only when the 12 volts is present at the small terminal If there is 12 volts only when the key is turned that is normal. But if the starter continues to run after releasing the key, and there is not 12 volts there anymore, the solenoid is stuck and should be replaced. The part number is 380095, changed to 586180. Sierra Marine/iboats number is 18-5808

 

[F_R]

Re: Solenoid / Rectifier grounding problem ??

Yes, in addition, disconnecting the battery while running (or loose connections) can destroy the rectifier and CD ignition amplifier. Be careful what you are monkeying around with. It can get costly. You should get a OEM manual if you are going to try fixing stuff yourself.

 

[Think oar Thwim]

Re: Solenoid / Rectifier grounding problem ??

ToT, Although I am not familar with your particular model, I do not think the rectifier and starter solenoid interact electrically. Rectifiers go bad when they are disconnected from the battery when the motor is running. Starter Solenoids are connected to the battery, ground and the ignition switch, but not directly to the rectifier. In addition, I would think a 1968 OMC would be a points/magneto or battery-points-coil ignition.

On to your problem. I would think that either your solenoid stuck in the closed position (a bit unusual) or the ignition switch stuck or there is some insulation damage on a hot wire and the solenoid wire. You will want to troubleshoot the problem. It should be easy to check the solenoid with an ohmmeter, and replace with marine parts.

The concern I have regarding the solenoid and the rectifier is that the 2 yellow wires go to the stator and red goes to the large post on the solenoid terminal,which is also where the batteries positive wire goes, I assume thats how it charges the battery,my worry is if the starter engages and spins the flywheel which makes the stator generate volts to send through the rectifiers red wire,is it possible that this is jumping off back to the starter cable again ?? or is that even possible without the motor starting ??

Now let me see if I have this right so far...Probably the ignition switch,but possibly a stuck closed solenoid,,,and definately not a Ford solenoid for replacement..... I will check on all tonight and report back..
Thanks again Gentlemen for this great forum and any and all help.

And if anyone can offer the information on how and where the rectifier should be grounded I would greatly appreciate,as well as any other info I might be able to use to bring this gem back to waterworld...
Thanks again..............T.o.T.

 

[F_R]

Re: Solenoid / Rectifier grounding problem ??

Rectifier is grounded through the mounting screws. Two yellow wires from stator go to rectifier. Red wire from rectifier goes to solenoid, same side as the battery cable. That is how the stator puts juice back into the battery. I don't understand what you are suggesting about volts jumping off to the starter cable or whatever.

You are correct in thinking that as the flywheel spins, AC voltage is generated which is changed to DC by the rectifier, then the DC is fed to the battery to recharge it. Hasn't got a thing to do with the starter though. That's a different circuit just as the toaster in your house is on a different circuit than your TV even though they both get their juice from the same wire coming in from the street. (Battery in this case).

 

[BoatBuoy]

Re: Solenoid / Rectifier grounding problem ??

The red wire from the rectifier is connected to the battery side of the solenoid only for convenience. It conceivably could be wired directly to the pos.+ side of the battery, but that would mean one more wire in the harness.

 

[Think oar Thwim]

Re: Solenoid / Rectifier grounding problem ??

Rectifier is grounded through the mounting screws. Two yellow wires from stator go to rectifier. Red wire from rectifier goes to solenoid, same side as the battery cable. That is how the stator puts juice back into the battery. I don't understand what you are suggesting about volts jumping off to the starter cable or whatever.

You are correct in thinking that as the flywheel spins, AC voltage is generated which is changed to DC by the rectifier, then the DC is fed to the battery to recharge it. Hasn't got a thing to do with the starter though. That's a different circuit just as the toaster in your house is on a different circuit than your TV even though they both get their juice from the same wire coming in from the street. (Battery in this case).

Once again I can't thank you all enough for your input.

This comment touches on my puzzlement, you state that the rectifier is grounded through the mounting screws, and on my setup I have two wires that are posted on one of those screws between the rectifier and it's mounting bracket, one wire is a ground,and connected right above to powerhead ground bolt, and the other is coming from under the solenoid,I assume this means that the solenoid,unlike most other devices,is not grounded merely by it's mounting.(and this is a ground)

So what I'm getting at is since this ground wire from the block mounts to the rectifier attaching bolt,and isnt long enough to go anywhere else,could it be that the rectifier as well as the solenoid are not grounded by mounting ,and therefore both the solenoid ground ,and the rectifier are grounded by the short ground wire,and to secure this ground,the solenoid wire has to be in good contact with the short ground wire,not just the rectifier attaching bolt ?

for clarification.. I have a manual but it is a 1958 -72 3 cylinder manual which well covers my motor for the most part,and I have seen the service manuals blow up of these items,but I can't find any in relationship to this short ground wire or it's proper location or attachment.

Is it possible even, that starter run-on is a result of an improperly grounded solenoid?

Once again !! thanks so much for any assistance in helping me save a new rectifier,and this vintage heirloom motor...................T.o.T.

 

[F_R]

Re: Solenoid / Rectifier grounding problem ??

About those ground wires: As I recall, the negative battery cable is grounded to the powerhead. The ignition amplifier, rectifier and solenoid are all mountd on a bracket attached to the lower motor cover. The amplifier and rectifier are both sensitive components that are easily destroyed by things such as bad or loose grounds. Therefor, several ground wires are run between components on the mounting bracket and the engine block to ensure a secure ground for those components.

The starter solenoid itself does not actually need to be grounded. There are two small terminals on it, a white wire going to one, coming from the start terminal on the ignition switch, and another white wire going going from the second small terminal to the safety switch actuated by the throttle. The only ground required by the solenoid is for the pull-in coil inside it, and that is accomplished through the safety switch. When the safety switch is closed by the throttle being at a slow setting, you can start the motor. When the safety switch is open by the throttle being at a fast setting, you do not have a ground for the coil in the solenoid and you cannot start the motor.

 

[larky]

Re: Solenoid / Rectifier grounding problem ??

No I dont think a poorly grounded solenoid would result in a run-on. It would be Intermittent or not work at all. When you turn your key it powers an elctromagnet inside the solenoid that magneticly closes a switch that sends power to your starter. either the your ignition key contacts got stuck so that the elctromagnet inside the solenoid kept the swicth closed or the contacts of the solenoid got stuck closed. Both would result in keeping the starter turning while your key was turned off

 

[Think oar Thwim]

Re: Solenoid / Rectifier grounding problem ??

I'm back !

Once again ,I can't thank you all enough for the great information, Imported F R , and Larky have added just the right information to make me feel comfortable enough to move foreward. and all the rest have lead the way.
Big Thanx !!

Solenoids are cheap enough to help insure saving the toasting of other more expensive parts,so I will just order and mount a new one before even attempting to fire it up, then we will have restricted the problems possible location down to the ignition switch if thats not the cure,but after all your input I believe the solenoid has to be the culprit. I am heading off to order one now,and will report back as soon as tested.

Thanks again for all your help,and if anyone thinks of anything else I might want to look into in this problem feel free to add it on, at this early stage in my vintage boat repair schooling I am a sponge,,,without water for the time being,but thanks to you all hopefully thats soon remedied.

T.o.T