replace battery???

[strokeoluck]

If this message is in the wrong forum, please feel free to move it. I couldn't figure out how to post a new message in "marine electronics".

We have a 2005 Bayliner 185 with an I/O 4.3L Mercruiser. This boat is new to us (and we're new to boating), and we trailer it to a few local lakes. I'm having battery issues and need some help. The previous owner installed two additional batteries besides the engine cranking battery: one additional one for the GPS unit (which we kept w/the boat), and the other one for the trolling motor (which the previous owner kept; we don't fish much). Again, there are three batteries total in the engine compartment.

When my Dad and I dropped the boat in the local lake (a mile away) it barely cranked over, but it did. We ran it around the lake a few times and then I put it back in our garage with a slow charger on it for a week. Today we took it to a lake about five miles away (thinking surely it must be fully charged after being on a charger for a full week!), dropped it in the water and...a few weak attempts at turning over and then click, click, click. Slightly embarassing!

But I'm confused by a few things and have a few questions:

1) How the heck is it possible that the boat would crank over a week ago (weakly, but it did) and then we CHARGE it for a week, and then the battery is virtually dead? We did not leave anything on in the boat and the key was removed from the ignition.

2) The radio, which appears to be directly wired to the engine cranking battery, works fine. If the engine cranking battery is weak/dead, how is it possible that the radio would work?

3) As I mentioned there are still two OTHER batteries back in the engine compartment; one for the GPS and one for the old/nonexistent (now) trolling motor. "If" I could determine which one of these was NOT needed, could I use it as the engine cranking battery? I know nothing about batteries so I'm a little confused by the setup back there. I tried tracking the wires from the GPS and from the old trolling motor area, back to the batteries...but then it appeared the two spare batteries were somehow wired to EACH OTHER. So I would have no idea how to separate them.

4) Do I need the key in the ignition and the ignition on to make the GPS work? I tried plugging the GPS in (there are three cords/plugs) and then I hit the "PWR" button the GPS unit - nothing, no power. I did this w/the key in the ignition and turned to the accessory position, and also w/out the key in the ignition. Neither way produced any power to the GPS unit.

Sorry for the long message, but do you have any thoughts? I'm tempted to just purchase a new engine cranking battery for the boat. But I'm confused by the radio/GPS issue. The engine cranking battery photo link is below. Thanks!

 

[strokeoluck]

Re: replace battery???

After thinking about this for a few hours I realize I may have made a mistake when I went to start the boat at the ramp, though I'm not sure it would have made a difference.

When we dropped it in the water I hopped in the boat and put the key in the ignition. However, I now realize that I'm pretty sure I didn't put the throttle lever in neutral (by pushing that button in at it's base) and then pushing it forward about 1/4 of the way. I think that's the proper starting position/procedure; I'm going to double-check tomorrow.

BUT, even if that's the proper starting procedure and the boat wouldn't start unless the throttle was in that position, wouldn't I still hear some life from the battery?

 

[flatiron14]

Re: replace battery???

Take the cranking battery, or all the batteries for that matter, to a local auto parts store or a place that sells batteries and they can test it for you and let you know if it has a bad cell. If a battery has a bad cell or is shorted out, sometimes it'll charge up but won't last long at all, and then sometimes they won't do anything. I would also say that even without "proper starting procedure," if it cranked at all or tried to, then your engine not starting would be attributed to the battery, for sure.

As far as the radio goes, can you make certain it wasn't on or draining the battery during the week? And even if the battery is too weak to crank the engine, it can still have enough power to run something small like a radio. Kinda similar to when people leave car stereos and headlights on for a while...

With the extra batteries, you can use them as starting batteries if they are as big as the battery that is your current cranking battery. They should have a sticker on them that tells how many cranking amps they have. When you say "wired together" are they wired together with a switch that allows you to use either one? There may be a switch near them that turns power on for auxillary stuff like lights and a GPS unit.

Sorry for the long response, but I'd be willing to bet a new battery will solve your cranking problem.

 

[Ram58]

Re: replace battery???

If the two extra batteries are wired together I would guess the trolling motor was a 12/24 or 24 volt. If you're not going to have a trolling motor you could possibly use one of those batteries.

 

[marine4003]

Re: replace battery???

what a mess...first of all , does the boat have a battery selector switch? it is round about 6inch in circumference,and will have markings for 1 -2 -all.? its also possible that if all battery's were wired in tandem and not done correctly, you fried the alternator, remove all the batterys,check them.then if you dont have a selector switch,get one. Go here for wiring procedures - http://easyacdc.com/
as for wiring any accessories..always wire them to a circuit protected board,a fused link.it sounds like everything was jury-rigged

Good Luck.

 

[5150abf]

Re: replace battery???

You need to take all the batteries in and have them checked to see which if any are good, then you will know if it is a wiring problem or a bat problem.

A bad battery won't charge period so that you charged it doesn't mean much.

Once you find out what is good you really only need 2 batteries in the boat, 1 for starting and one for the boat itself, no need to lug around an extra battery and if all you are running is a stereo and a gps one battery will be more than fine.

So get the batteries checked and repost and we will go from there.

 

[strokeoluck]

Re: replace battery???

Thanks much guys - I really appreciate it. I already have the starting/cranking battery in my trunk and I was going to get it checked out today. But I'll also get the others checked out asap.

As for the wiring it looks like it was done well, I just might not be describing it well. The previous owner said the marina or a dealership did it. In fact there's a slow charger built in back there - but I think it only charges the two batteries that run the GPS and the former trolling motor.

More to follow!

 

[Silvertip]

Re: replace battery???

Let's tackle one thing at a time here.

Before jumping to conclusions about bad batteries, lets make sure the cables between the battery and the engine have clean terminals and are tightly connected. That doesn't mean looking at them and saying "yup - ok". That means disconnect them, make them shiny clean and then reinstall - tightly. Do this on both ends of each cable. Corroded cables cannot conduct electricity.

If you don't have one, I suggest you stop at any home improvement store, go to the electrical area and buy an inexpensive multitester (volt-ohmmeter). If you intend to do any work at all on this boat you will need one and need to know how to use it. Get very familiar with the electrical system on your boat. Check the sticky at the top of this forum titled "Generic Boat Wiring".

Starting procedure does require that the shifter be in neutral, but you have a misconception about what pushing the button and moving the lever forward does. That action allows you actually "pump" the throttle lever a couple times to "prime" the engine which squirts a little fuel into the manifold and sets the choke. This is not necessary on a fuel injected engine. The outdrive will still be in neutral even though the lever is forward which is why you push the button. It disconnects the shift cable while the throttle is moved forward. Now turn the key to start.

As for batteries, you can safely disconnect any battery but make sure you remove all cables and never - ever leave the positive cable dangling when you have not also disconnected the negative cable. That represents a very effective "welder" if you get my drift.

Slow charging a battery is not the proper charging technique either. Google "battery charging process" to learn how to do this properly. You cannot charge a defective battery -- actually you can but it does not good as it will not "hold" a charge so you waste time and energy. Have each of those batteries load tested. If you have a radio that has an electronic station memory and clock, those items run all the time so there is a small drain on the battery but that should not kill it in a week.

If the battery tests good, cables are clean and tight, and it still doesn't crank well, you may have a starter going bad. This is just a start of the things you will need to deal with. One last bit of advice -- if you don't have a service manual for the engine and outdrive, get one and study it well. Being stranded on the water with even the simplest of problems is a good way to lose friends and make your family very angry to the point where they will no longer support the activity.

 

[John_S]

Re: replace battery???

Is that marina nearby? Such that they might be able to tell you how and why it is wired. It might also make sense just to have them work on it and then explain everything to you. This can be a little overwelming for a boating newbie, especially if you do not have any electrical background.

I suspect that the trolling motor was a 24V unit, which required two 12V batteries in series. The GPS was probably added latter, so it was put on one of the trolling motor batteries. It wouldn't make much sense to add a whole battery just for the GPS. They are not power hogs, and you don't usually spend allot of time with them unless you are underway. ie battery should be charging from alternator.

If you are going forward with your own toubleshooting, follow Silvertips recommendation and focus on the starting battery and circuits.

 

[strokeoluck]

Re: replace battery???

The marina is about a 70 - 80 minute drive north of me, so it's unlikely to happen. But I'll get the basics sorted out somehow (my Dad is ok w/this stuff but lives an hour away; somehow I'll get him to look at it) and then when I take it into the marina nearby for the winter I'll have them "fix" it appropriately for our new setup.

I agree it's a little overwhelming. I appreciate the tip to Google how to charge a battery, but that's like telling me how to fly to the moon...I just won't get it and it's unlikely to take place. As my neighbor says "Our Grandpas could fix everything, our Dads can fix most things, we can fix a few things and our kids won't be able to fix sh*t." I'm starting to agree with him. Seems like the world is going towards specialties.

 

[John_S]

Re: replace battery???

Evaluating the starter battery and its connections, and charging system should not be that bad. You might luck out with the load test just showing a marginal battery. If you get stuck, there should be allot of dealers in your area that would be able to help out.

In the long run, you will probably be better off converting to a two battery system, with a switch. ie for your needs, which doesn't include fishing. Getting rid of the 3rd battery is considerable weight savings, along with the added security blanket of having the 2nd battery to switch to for starting power.

 

[strokeoluck]

Re: replace battery???

Ok, here's an update. I took the battery in to West Marine and they put some sort of tester on it. The guy said something like "it's either dead or it needs a serious charge". I told him I had it on an automotive charger for a week, and it was still weak/dead Sunday night. I told him to just give me a new battery. I walked out $100 lighter but with a new battery. Put it in the boat and it cranked right up. Problem # 1 solved.

I also hooked up the GPS unit again. I turned the key one notch to the right and still no GPS power; then I removed the key. Next I turned on the "Accy" switch and sure enough the GPS unit fired up. Problem # 2 solved.

But I was still curious about the two extra batteries in the engine compartment. So I spent some time viewing/tracing the wires. I'm thinking that the two batteries were just for the trolling motor (???). If you're willing to lend a hand and be patient with a non-techie guy, here's what I found:

There's a charger mounted to the transom wall inside the engine compartment; it's a Cabela Prosport12 Heavy Duty Rechargeable Series Dual Bank Marine Battery Charger. It's got a three prong cord and I plugged it in; an hour later it was warm and the lights indicated it was charging. I already had it plugged in for about a month this winter as well.

Ok, there were two black wires coming out of the charger (not counting the main power supply wire w/the three prong plug. Black wire # 1 went to battery # 1. Black wire 1 splits becomes "unsheathed" and splits into red and yellow; the red goes to the POS terminal of battery 1, and the yellow wire goes to the NEG terminal of battery 1. A new black wire comes off the NEG terminal of battery 1 and heads into a hole in the passenger side of the transom, riding "shotgun with a red wire coming off battery # 2. A thick black sheathed wire comes off the red/POS terminal from battery 1 and goes to the NEG terminal on battery 2. A yellow wire jumps from the NEG terminal on battery 2 to another red/yellow sheathed wire; the red wire jumps to the POS terminal and a thick red wire jumps off that POS terminal and rides shotgun w/the black wire heading out the hole in the transom wall out underneath the passenger side. I then tracked that red/wire combo (they were zip-tied together) all the up underneath the gunwhale (?) and up underneath the fiberglass towards the front of the boat where the trolling motor was formerly mounted. I reached my hand into the hole cut in the fiberglass (covered by the side cushion) and felt the wires; they terminated in a two prong male plug that was mounted on the inside of the boat - so I'm assuming that's where he plugged the trolling motor into.

I tried tracing the GPS power lines but they headed right behind a carpeted wall underneath the steering wheel and appeared to head right into the fuse box.

Sooooo...I'm now wondering if the two spare batteries were JUST for the trolling motor!? And they have NOTHING to do with the GPS? I suppose I could have disconnected the spare batteries, but it was late and I was lazy. I suppose I'll try that tomorrow unless you guys know what's going on here.

Thanks in advance.

 

[flargin]

Re: replace battery???

Ok, here's an update. I took the battery in to West Marine and they put some sort of tester on it. The guy said something like "it's either dead or it needs a serious charge". I told him I had it on an automotive charger for a week, and it was still weak/dead Sunday night. I told him to just give me a new battery. I walked out $100 lighter but with a new battery. Put it in the boat and it cranked right up. Problem # 1 solved.

I tried tracing the GPS power lines but they headed right behind a carpeted wall underneath the steering wheel and appeared to head right into the fuse box.

Sooooo...I'm now wondering if the two spare batteries were JUST for the trolling motor!? And they have NOTHING to do with the GPS?

I think your starting and GPS problems are solved. Your GPS runs off of your starting battery. A number of accessories run off this circuit, likely your radio and instrument lights.

Ok, there were two black wires coming out of the charger (not counting the main power supply wire w/the three prong plug. Black wire # 1 went to battery # 1. Black wire 1 splits becomes "unsheathed" and splits into red and yellow; the red goes to the POS terminal of battery 1, and the yellow wire goes to the NEG terminal of battery 1. A new black wire comes off the NEG terminal of battery 1 and heads into a hole in the passenger side of the transom, riding "shotgun with a red wire coming off battery # 2. A thick black sheathed wire comes off the red/POS terminal from battery 1 and goes to the NEG terminal on battery 2. A yellow wire jumps from the NEG terminal on battery 2 to another red/yellow sheathed wire; the red wire jumps to the POS terminal and a thick red wire jumps off that POS terminal and rides shotgun w/the black wire heading out the hole in the transom wall out underneath the passenger side. I then tracked that red/wire combo (they were zip-tied together) all the up underneath the gunwhale (?) and up underneath the fiberglass towards the front of the boat where the trolling motor was formerly mounted. I reached my hand into the hole cut in the fiberglass (covered by the side cushion) and felt the wires; they terminated in a two prong male plug that was mounted on the inside of the boat - so I'm assuming that's where he plugged the trolling motor into.

If I assess this correctly...

These two batteries have a charger directly attached (Yellow on neg, Red on Pos) do the individual batteries. These two batteries are tied togeather to a pair of wires running to the front of the boat. They used to be attached to the 24V trolling motor.

These batteries are doing nothing to support your boat...

I would assume, if the guy would just leave the batteries, they are likely toast and useless, but you could have them checked. Unless you want to install a trolling motor, you likely would not need 2 batteries.

Have the other two checked and then you can figure out what you want to do with the batteries.

Options.. install it as an accessories battery, leave it as a backup/emergency battery, etc.

 

[Jakeboat]

Re: replace battery???

I am putting my battery in and ther are 3 wires a thin red and yellow wire and one thicker red wire, do I connect them to the positive or negative?

 

[strokeoluck]

Re: replace battery???

A follow up question. Can I use this Cabela dual bank battery charger to charge the starting/cranking battery? Or is it only designed to charge the "lesser/smaller" batteries that previously ran the trolling motor?

Any thoughts on how to wire it if I do use it for the main battery?

Thanks.

 

[strokeoluck]

Re: replace battery???

Also, someone mentioned that a radio w/station memory will suck juice from the battery. Is that accurate? If so, and we only use the boat once every few weeks, should I be doing something to ensure that the battery remains charged? Or will the radio draw such a small amount that I don't need to worry about it until we store the boat for the winter?

 

[strokeoluck]

Re: replace battery???

bump

 

[flargin]

Re: replace battery???

A follow up question. Can I use this Cabela dual bank battery charger to charge the starting/cranking battery? Or is it only designed to charge the "lesser/smaller" batteries that previously ran the trolling motor?

Any thoughts on how to wire it if I do use it for the main battery?

Thanks.

Yes, it will charge either the starting or Deep cycle batteries.

Positive(Red) to positive(+); negative(Black) to negative(-). might look here for a manual http://www.dualpro.com/support/Manuals/ That may help. If it is not the correct model/make might search for it. if you need help let us know.

radio w/station memory will suck juice from the battery. Is that accurate? If so, and we only use the boat once every few weeks, should I be doing something to ensure that the battery remains charged? Or will the radio draw such a small amount that I don't need to worry about it until we store the boat for the winter?
Thanks.

Every 3 weeks should be fine... over winter yes - it will kill it. but over the winter it will die even without any drain, so you need to keep the battery charged every few months.

As a learning note....

People here are very, very helpful. You can get a lot more effective response to your question by spending a little more time thinking through your questions prior to posting them.

Don't use a single thread to ask a series of questions, people will stop reading a thread, when they know the question has been answered. Remember the thread name right now is "replace battery..." it would likely be more effective if you had a new thread with something like "Help installing dual bank battery charger" or " How often do I need to re-charge a battery".

Also, please spend a few minutes to get the details of your boat setup.. Pictures, model numbers etc really helps people answer questions.

It sounds like you are quite a ways away from support, so this site will be a wealth of information... and you will be able to fix everything... if you use a few common sense strategies to communicate your problems.