Recurrent Problems with 200 HPDI

[cpt woody]

I have a 2005, 200hp, HPDI with 680hrs. The high preasure fuel pump has been replaced twice and after yesterday, the same problem appeared again. Motor starts fine, runs well up to 2800rpms and then when I put the throdle down, it acts like it ran out of gas and stalls out. The bulb sometimes stays hard and sometimes gets soft. If I drain the racor, it fills very slowly with difficulty. It is the exact same systoms I've seen before. Ist time, Yamaha said it was a defective high presure pump, next time the yamaha tec tested it and said the old system had air leaks and the motor was sucking too much air. Old system was replaced. Tech also said the o2 sensor was dirty and he cleaned it. 2008 had fuel tank replaced, new lines put in. Two weeks ago, had the VST tank drained and the filter was clean. I replace the racor 10mcr filter every 50hrs, use Ring Freel. Troll mostly (90%), run 600 to 800rpm. At this spead it runs fine.. What is perplexing, 1st time out, I ran motor up to 5500 rps and crused at 4000rps no problems. Next day went fishing(on the way out at 4000, it missed once), after trolling 5 hrs, the symtoms apeared again(partner kepted pumping bulb) and we got in. Thought it was maybe water in the fuel, Yesterday, won't go over 2800 RPMs. Help, Cpt woody

 

[cousinabe]

Re: Recurrent Problems with 200 HPDI

I would perform a fuel system vacuum test to help isolate where the restriction may be.
T in a vacuum gauge between the engine mounted filter and low pressure fuel pump line.
vacuum must be less than 4"Hg at WOT and at least 1" Hg at idle.

 

[cpt woody]

Re: Recurrent Problems with 200 HPDI

Did vaccum check from tank to racor and from racor to engine with regular tank and top of deck tank. 1 to 1.5, same with both tanks and different places. Didn't check the location you suggested, boat in water and to much wind today. Checked vent, no change in presure. Fuel, tank ruled out. thanks

 

[cousinabe]

Re: Recurrent Problems with 200 HPDI

ok. test it between the engine mounted filter and the low pressure fuel pumps. should be above 1" Hg and 4" Hg all times... test at WOT too for 10min.

If it goes above 4" Hg there is a restriction from that point back to tank, 1" Hg less is a restriction forward.

If it's back, have you addressed
Engine mounted filter

If it's forward, have you addressed the following:
Low pressure fuel pump diaphragms
Medium pressure filter
VST filter
Pressure regulator screen
Fuel injector screens

http://www.boats.net/parts/search/Yamaha/Outboard/2005/Z200TXRD/VAPOR SEPARATOR 1/parts.html

parts, 14, 19, 27

Also, you don't want to run that motor in a lean condition otherwise you'll be posting about a detonated piston.
What is your actual model number off the port bracket?

 

[rodbolt]

Re: Recurrent Problems with 200 HPDI

this is to easy.
check fuel system vacum at the lower lift pump intake, check fuel system pressure at the high pressure pump sensor.
if the vacum is good and the pressure is bad replace or clean the VST filter, replace the lift pumps for maint and replace the medium pressure inline and retest.
if the 50 PSI medium pressure is good and the 695PSI rail pressure is bad then the high pressure pump needs to be sent off for service.
to many techs overlook that medium pressure inline filter and way to many FAIL to use the CORRECT clamps when installing a new one.
no wire ties and NO worm type clamps.

 

[cpt woody]

Re: Recurrent Problems with 200 HPDI

Cousinabe & Rodbolt. Thanks for your relies and direction. By the way, I misspoke, I've had two VST pump failures. Took boat to YCM this morning and asked some very pointed questions about his prevous work and diagnosis. He told me after my last VST failure, he vaccum checked all the sites you suggested and filters and found everything to be normal except for the vaccum boat side. Conclusion, poor boatside vaccum caused the failure. I challenged him today since I've replaced the entire fuel system and it looks like another VST failure. He called the yamaha rep and they are going to work on it Mon or tues. Have either of you ever seen a VST failure caused by poor vaccum on the boat side? thanks "Woody"

 

[rodbolt]

Re: Recurrent Problems with 200 HPDI

find another tech
that pump technically can be run dry and burn up but the engine shuts down long before that happens.
you have two lift pumps that feed the Vapor Seperator Tank. Tank is the key word.
the VST pump(medium pressure) simply sucks vapor free fuel from this tank and feeds it through a filter to the high pressure belt driven pump which steps the pressure up to about 700 PSI.
run the medium pressure low and the engine quits.
excessive fuel system vacum or air leaks could damage a lift pump(low pressure) but odds are very high it could damage the VST pump unless someone is manually activating the VST pump when dry.
what is the medium pressure reading at key on power ,then at idle then at WOT?
if its about 50 PSI check the voltage at the high pressure sender, should remain about 3 Volts throught the running range.
high pressure fuel can also be observed with the laptop.

 

[k4ubr]

Re: Recurrent Problems with 200 HPDI

Well you mite check the contle cables in or out of ajustment, (throttle cable) the tps is tyed in the linkage. the voltage there can do the same.

 

[cpt woody]

Re: Recurrent Problems with 200 HPDI

I will get the anwers to your questions on Tues. Rodbolt suggested and I agree that I need to find another YCM. I guess sometimes, tech's just don't know what they don't know. I've been through 3 already. I live right outside of annapolis, MD. Does anyone have a suggestion on a top YCM in the baltimore/annap area?

 

[cousinabe]

Re: Recurrent Problems with 200 HPDI

Fairwinds marina.

 

[rodbolt]

Re: Recurrent Problems with 200 HPDI

always remember with HPDI you have 3 pump pressures.
low pressure lift pump yours has 2, medium pressure(50 PSI) pump in the VST that feeds fuel via an inline filter that can and will clog to the high pressure belt driven pump.
since the introduction of the HPDI, other than trash filled pumps, I have only seen 1 high pressure pump failure.
there are 2 non- field servicable screens inside the high pressure pump unit.
thats why VST filter and medium pressure inline filter service is critical.
I did get a flyer from Flagship Marine in Florida that they now offer reconditioning services for both the 2.6L and 3.3L High pressure pumps.

 

[cpt woody]

Re: Recurrent Problems with 200 HPDI(Update)

Re: Recurrent Problems with 200 HPDI(Update)

Well Rodbolt and Cousinable, when your right, your right. You called it. Fortunitly this time the performance problem that I had with my HPDI was not a pump failure. It was I guess the classic problem with HPDIs. Clogged VST and med pressure pump filters. Three weeks latter and $750 bucks lighter my boat back in the water and running great. I wish I could be a doit yourselfer but I can't. Its best for Cpt Woody to stick with fishing and do a better job of insuring YCM do the specific maintance that the HPDI requires. Thanks again for the help.

 

[cousinabe]

Re: Recurrent Problems with 200 HPDI

glad you're up and running Cpt!
Anytime you want to pass on more fishing tips, I'm all ears.

 

[rodbolt]

Re: Recurrent Problems with 200 HPDI

dang
cousinabe is alawys beating me up .
the more he/she does it the better I like them .
glad your up again,sorry it cost so much but actually the maint you had done takes no longer than 1.5 hours and is relativly simple.
carefully google yamaha master techs and use the yamaha dealer locator function and if that dealer employs no master techs dont take your boat there.
*I doubt your first issue was a pump failure, they just dont fail.

 

[cpt woody]

Re: Recurrent Problems with 200 HPDI

Rodbolt, they charged me for 6.3 hours, I told them I thought the bill was a bit high. Cousinable told me about a master tech at fairwinds which about 20 minutes from the house. Will start taking it there. By the way here's what the tech told me that did the work
In the shop, motor on computer, no codes were seen and all pressure checks were in the normal ranges
Field test. At the problem rpms(3900) HP pump pressure dropped from 700 to 430 psi and the VST pressure dropped from 50psi to less than 40psi
Lift pumps at 5(not sure of the units), told me range is 3 to 5
Saw the VST filter myself, completly caked with white stuff on the front and brown material on the back and in the tank
O2 sensor ok and motor ran great with all new filters
Anything above raise concerns for you?
I have seen the promises of an HPDI, great top and out of the hole speed, low fuel and oil use, quite and very low admissions, these benies have been outweighed by frequent breakdowns, including multible pump failures, oil leaks down the drive shaft, computer chip failures and constant plug fouling not to mention service problems with YCM's not knowing much about HPDI's
When I've spoken to other HPDI owners, most say they "haven't had any problems", Then when I ask how many hours do you have on it, usually less than 50hrs a year. I spoke to a guy the other day that has Twin 's2001, 200hpdi and has 280s on them. Heck I put 300hrs the 1st year. Thank god for the yamaha warrenty. I am thinking about some alternatives, kicker motor maybe(no more trolling with the HPDI), trading in for 225, 2stroke(saltwater II) if I can find one., fishing on friends boat(best boat is the one your friend has). Sorry for the book but maybe my experience will help someone else

 

[rodbolt]

Re: Recurrent Problems with 200 HPDI

with the correct maint the HPDI actually ran decent.
once per year or every 100 hours change ALL the engine filters, same with O2 sensor cleaning/testing.
in that 300 hours how many times did you clean/change the VST filter and how many times did the inline medium pressure filter get changed?
lack of maint and ethanol induced debris is NOT a yamaha issue but an owner/hull issue.
carefully follow your congressmen and senate.
there is a push from about 52 ethanol producers to mandate E20.
no one yet makes an outboard compatable with E20.
E10 is junk but E20 will be a death knell.