Re: QA and Design on Two Installed SEAHUNT TRITON 212 FISH BOX Enclosures &
Dear Forum:<br />My dealer, Seels Outboard Charleston SC is checking on problems below with Sea Hunt Triton 212 and 232 etc. Have any of your customers has problems with cooler foam insulations and core foam levels in voids/hull skins?<br /><br />VR/ <br /><br />Terry Payne <br />SPAWAR Customer Support (04C) <br />C-CUBEDCORP <br />tpayne@c-cubedcorp.com <br />843-308-6720 Office <br />619-459-0359 Cell <br />------------------------------------------------- <br />Dear Mr. Moss (Joel) and Mr. Seels (Ernie): (Refer to attached Microsoft document) <br /><br />Ernie, I missed you on Saturday AM at Seels. <br /><br />1. I inspected with portable lights and snakes the 100 Qt and 150 Qt Fish Box enclosures under the coolers through the removable hand hole and found the following: Inner sides (keel) have some insulation, bottom of boxes have 1.0-1.5 inches of space available to insulate (they do not abut to fiberglass ribs), forward and outboard sides are not insulated, aft side has 8" X 8" splatter foam insulation approx 3/16" thick.<br /><br />2. Bottom line: There is ample room for complete 360 degree side and bottom insulation with a filler liquid foam that expands. As a check I applied two small cans of moisture resistance foam using flexible tubing under the 100 Qt cooler and the foam expended nicely but a messy way to correct insulation deficiency and after 100 cans or so pretty expensive. Insulation needs to be corrected to be used as Fish Box with some cooling/storage capability. An Igloo Cooler it will never be, but for off-shore fishing Fish Boxes should be able to keep block ice from melting completely in eight hours with drain plugs installed a median off-shore trip. <br /><br />3. New Item: Gunwale FOAM Level forward of installed Outrigger Holders. Based on noise and flexing forward of center console on July trip off-shore in 3-4 foot seas and lack of foam on coolers, I inspected GUNWALE spaces for foam levels using portable lights and pipe snakes, accesses in GUNWALE (Rod holders, Outrigger Holders, and other accesses. Here's my rough assessment: I hate to use the corny old Wendy's Burger commercial ("Where's The Beef?") but .<br /><br /> a. Foam level aft of Outrigger Holders (approx 10.5 ft from transom) in inner GUNWALE space is approx 8"-10 " (inches) below GUNWALE Top.<br /><br /> b. Foam level forward of Outrigger Holders (approx 10.5 ft from transom) in inner GUNWALE space is not detectable with 4.0 foot flexible probe into inner space.<br /><br /> c. My rough assessment is that the foam level in inner GUNWALE forward of Ourgigger Holders is limited to waterline and bilge or at least the foam level is not uniformly filled to top. These deficiencies will cause the hull to flex more than designed and I will start having Gel Coat problems in vicinity of center console amidships. The noise and shock absorption are adversely affected also.<br /><br />4. Ernie I will come by and get your assessment. Probably the rigging folks who installed Outrigger Holders can confirm foam level forward of center console since they had to view foam level when Outriggers were installed.<br /><br />5. My inclination at this point is to have Fish Box enclosures insulated so I can use them as such and to have foam levels in boat GUNWALE spaces forward of center console filled to level to make boat hull solid and minimize flexing and stress to Gel Coat surfaces. I want Seels to verify my observation and inspection of course. If these deficiencies not covered by warranty (I would certainly expect they are ), I would like a cost estimate of shipping the hull back to Sea Hunt to have all insulating foam work done to make hull a more desirable off-shore boat.<br /><br />6. Recommendations are welcomed on how to proceed. I will discuss with Seels this week <br /><br />Very truly yours, <br /><br />Terry Payne <br />SPAWAR Customer Support (04C) <br />C-CUBEDCORP <br />Charleston SC <br />tpayne@c-cubedcorp.com <br />843-308-6720 Office <br />619-459-0359 Cell <br />843-762-4286 Home <br /><br />------------------------------------------------- <br />Dear Mr. Moss (Joel): <br /><br />1. Thanks for returning my phone call today and providing the installation data on the bow coolers. I bought my 21 ft Triton 212 boat from Seels Outboard (Ernie) in Charleston SC June 2003. I have not discussed design or insulation issue with Ernie because I was not sure of design specifications. The boat is at Seels today undergoing some unrelated hardware additions. I will discuss results of our discussion when I see Ernie Seels. <br /><br />2. Neither of my bow coolers has 100% adhered insulation protection on the sides. The top is as you stated not insulated, nor designed as such. Both coolers have literally a splattered 8" X 8" layering on the most immediately accessible side (handhole cover access) but the other accessible sides and non-accessible sides do not have visible insulation. I estimate the actual insulation square footage for each cooler is less than 10% of the surface area.<br /><br />3. We probably have a QA issue here although I would like to find a portable moisture-resistance poly foam that I can spray inside the accesses to insulate surfaces that I can reach. <br /><br />4. How would applying, with a paint roller, EPDM Rubber (Liquid Rubber) on the inside of cooler surfaces and the lid function?<br /><br /> a. EPDM rubber was not available in liquid form until relatively recently so Liquid Neoprene rubber became the material of choice for protecting concrete against both fresh and salt water. The Liquid Neoprene products are simple solvent solutions or water based emulsions and therefore have low solids content and relatively low molecular weights. These limitations made multiple coat applications necessary and required top coating with other polymers to prevent ultra violet degradation.<br /><br /> b. The development of Liquid EPDM Rubber resulted in a high solids, two components chemically reactive product capable of polymerizing at ambient temperatures( 55 F ( 13 C) and higher). This product can be applied at a 30 mil dry film (.76 mm) in a single application because of the high solids content. Its chemical cure feature then results in a high molecular weight film with protective and performance properties exceeding those of liquid applied Neoprene films.<br /><br /> c. Liquid EPDM Rubber can withstand boiling water or live steam and is inherently UV and ozone stable. The product is safer to use because of its higher flash point and the two component packaging permits extended storage at higher temperatures than liquid Neoprene. The non polar characteristic of the EPDM also gives it advantages over Neoprene in saltwater environments as well as better resistance to cathodic disbondment. EPDM rubber has poor resistance to oils, fats, waxes and aliphatic solvents but possesses very good resistance to ketone solvents, alcohols, polar compounds, Salts, most acids up to 50 % concentration, alkalies and water. May be applied on roof decks, gutters, structural steel, air conditioner enclosures, cooling towers, galvanized steel, unit heater flues, smoke stacks chimneys, fiberglass and non porous masonry surfaces. 5 Year Warranty.<br /><br />Any ideas and recommendations would be welcome. <br /><br />Very truly yours, <br /><br />Terry Payne
Dear Forum:<br />My dealer, Seels Outboard Charleston SC is checking on problems below with Sea Hunt Triton 212 and 232 etc. Have any of your customers has problems with cooler foam insulations and core foam levels in voids/hull skins?<br /><br />VR/ <br /><br />Terry Payne <br />SPAWAR Customer Support (04C) <br />C-CUBEDCORP <br />tpayne@c-cubedcorp.com <br />843-308-6720 Office <br />619-459-0359 Cell <br />------------------------------------------------- <br />Dear Mr. Moss (Joel) and Mr. Seels (Ernie): (Refer to attached Microsoft document) <br /><br />Ernie, I missed you on Saturday AM at Seels. <br /><br />1. I inspected with portable lights and snakes the 100 Qt and 150 Qt Fish Box enclosures under the coolers through the removable hand hole and found the following: Inner sides (keel) have some insulation, bottom of boxes have 1.0-1.5 inches of space available to insulate (they do not abut to fiberglass ribs), forward and outboard sides are not insulated, aft side has 8" X 8" splatter foam insulation approx 3/16" thick.<br /><br />2. Bottom line: There is ample room for complete 360 degree side and bottom insulation with a filler liquid foam that expands. As a check I applied two small cans of moisture resistance foam using flexible tubing under the 100 Qt cooler and the foam expended nicely but a messy way to correct insulation deficiency and after 100 cans or so pretty expensive. Insulation needs to be corrected to be used as Fish Box with some cooling/storage capability. An Igloo Cooler it will never be, but for off-shore fishing Fish Boxes should be able to keep block ice from melting completely in eight hours with drain plugs installed a median off-shore trip. <br /><br />3. New Item: Gunwale FOAM Level forward of installed Outrigger Holders. Based on noise and flexing forward of center console on July trip off-shore in 3-4 foot seas and lack of foam on coolers, I inspected GUNWALE spaces for foam levels using portable lights and pipe snakes, accesses in GUNWALE (Rod holders, Outrigger Holders, and other accesses. Here's my rough assessment: I hate to use the corny old Wendy's Burger commercial ("Where's The Beef?") but .<br /><br /> a. Foam level aft of Outrigger Holders (approx 10.5 ft from transom) in inner GUNWALE space is approx 8"-10 " (inches) below GUNWALE Top.<br /><br /> b. Foam level forward of Outrigger Holders (approx 10.5 ft from transom) in inner GUNWALE space is not detectable with 4.0 foot flexible probe into inner space.<br /><br /> c. My rough assessment is that the foam level in inner GUNWALE forward of Ourgigger Holders is limited to waterline and bilge or at least the foam level is not uniformly filled to top. These deficiencies will cause the hull to flex more than designed and I will start having Gel Coat problems in vicinity of center console amidships. The noise and shock absorption are adversely affected also.<br /><br />4. Ernie I will come by and get your assessment. Probably the rigging folks who installed Outrigger Holders can confirm foam level forward of center console since they had to view foam level when Outriggers were installed.<br /><br />5. My inclination at this point is to have Fish Box enclosures insulated so I can use them as such and to have foam levels in boat GUNWALE spaces forward of center console filled to level to make boat hull solid and minimize flexing and stress to Gel Coat surfaces. I want Seels to verify my observation and inspection of course. If these deficiencies not covered by warranty (I would certainly expect they are ), I would like a cost estimate of shipping the hull back to Sea Hunt to have all insulating foam work done to make hull a more desirable off-shore boat.<br /><br />6. Recommendations are welcomed on how to proceed. I will discuss with Seels this week <br /><br />Very truly yours, <br /><br />Terry Payne <br />SPAWAR Customer Support (04C) <br />C-CUBEDCORP <br />Charleston SC <br />tpayne@c-cubedcorp.com <br />843-308-6720 Office <br />619-459-0359 Cell <br />843-762-4286 Home <br /><br />------------------------------------------------- <br />Dear Mr. Moss (Joel): <br /><br />1. Thanks for returning my phone call today and providing the installation data on the bow coolers. I bought my 21 ft Triton 212 boat from Seels Outboard (Ernie) in Charleston SC June 2003. I have not discussed design or insulation issue with Ernie because I was not sure of design specifications. The boat is at Seels today undergoing some unrelated hardware additions. I will discuss results of our discussion when I see Ernie Seels. <br /><br />2. Neither of my bow coolers has 100% adhered insulation protection on the sides. The top is as you stated not insulated, nor designed as such. Both coolers have literally a splattered 8" X 8" layering on the most immediately accessible side (handhole cover access) but the other accessible sides and non-accessible sides do not have visible insulation. I estimate the actual insulation square footage for each cooler is less than 10% of the surface area.<br /><br />3. We probably have a QA issue here although I would like to find a portable moisture-resistance poly foam that I can spray inside the accesses to insulate surfaces that I can reach. <br /><br />4. How would applying, with a paint roller, EPDM Rubber (Liquid Rubber) on the inside of cooler surfaces and the lid function?<br /><br /> a. EPDM rubber was not available in liquid form until relatively recently so Liquid Neoprene rubber became the material of choice for protecting concrete against both fresh and salt water. The Liquid Neoprene products are simple solvent solutions or water based emulsions and therefore have low solids content and relatively low molecular weights. These limitations made multiple coat applications necessary and required top coating with other polymers to prevent ultra violet degradation.<br /><br /> b. The development of Liquid EPDM Rubber resulted in a high solids, two components chemically reactive product capable of polymerizing at ambient temperatures( 55 F ( 13 C) and higher). This product can be applied at a 30 mil dry film (.76 mm) in a single application because of the high solids content. Its chemical cure feature then results in a high molecular weight film with protective and performance properties exceeding those of liquid applied Neoprene films.<br /><br /> c. Liquid EPDM Rubber can withstand boiling water or live steam and is inherently UV and ozone stable. The product is safer to use because of its higher flash point and the two component packaging permits extended storage at higher temperatures than liquid Neoprene. The non polar characteristic of the EPDM also gives it advantages over Neoprene in saltwater environments as well as better resistance to cathodic disbondment. EPDM rubber has poor resistance to oils, fats, waxes and aliphatic solvents but possesses very good resistance to ketone solvents, alcohols, polar compounds, Salts, most acids up to 50 % concentration, alkalies and water. May be applied on roof decks, gutters, structural steel, air conditioner enclosures, cooling towers, galvanized steel, unit heater flues, smoke stacks chimneys, fiberglass and non porous masonry surfaces. 5 Year Warranty.<br /><br />Any ideas and recommendations would be welcome. <br /><br />Very truly yours, <br /><br />Terry Payne